5 ms·

The goal of the defund movements is to balkanize police duties so that the people tasked with these duties have appropriate training, weaponry (if any), etc, to

The goal of the defund movements is to balkanize police duties so that the people tasked with these duties have appropriate training, weaponry (if any), etc, to place more money into community development and fighting poverty, and to increase civilian oversight, since there have been decades and decades of attempts to reform the police and it does not work.

swader999 6y ago
Maybe goal was the wrong word choice. The end result will be more private forces.
- shirakawasuna 6y ago
  Why do you say that? The calls are for redistributing the funds to other municipal forces or programs.
  - LegitShady 6y ago
    With reduced policing and increased chaos and rioting it seems logical that those with means will employ private security forces. It's the same reason guns are selling like crazy, with new gun owners at all-time high. I fear a situation where because of empathy the state has given up the monopoly on force by essentially allowing violent riots that destroy individuals livelihoods, and those individuals will look for some other way to secure themselves and their property.
    - shirakawasuna 6y ago
      > With reduced policing and increased chaos and rioting it seems logical that those with means will employ private security forces. Why do you believe chaos and rioting will be the outcome of reworking policing? That "chaos" and riots are a direct result of the status quo of violent and often racist policing.
      - Consultant32452 6y ago
        I disagree. The chaos and riots are a direct result of weak leadership. When the mayor and governor practically declare a "purge" this is what you get. This would happen in any place and any time in which the government stands down and tells the civilian population they are on their own. We've been locked down for months and it seems like the only thing that's legal to do is burn down buildings and rob stores. This will only be ended with overwhelming violence. Either the state needs to step up and accept their role/responsibility as the monopoly holder on violence, or I fear the general population will. And if the average joe does it, it'll be in the form of mass killings at rallies, which no one wants.
        shirakawasuna 6y ago
        > I disagree. They're literally a response to George Floyd being murdered. The straw that broke the camel's back. Every single protest has chanting of the high-profile cases of black people being murdered by police. > The chaos and riots are a direct result of weak leadership. When the mayor and governor practically declare a "purge" this is what you get. I have no idea what this is referring to. > This would happen in any place and any time in which the government stands down and tells the civilian population they are on their own. When the government stands down from what? Civilian population on their own for what? I have so many questions. > We've been locked down for months and it seems like the only thing that's legal to do is burn down buildings and rob stores. Are you trying to make this about the pandemic? > This will only be ended with overwhelming violence. Either the state needs to step up and accept their role/responsibility as the monopoly holder on violence, or I fear the general population will. And if the average joe does it, it'll be in the form of mass killings at rallies, which no one wants. It will be ended when cops stop murdering black people. That seems like a more copacetic solution than escalating violence.
        Consultant32452 6y ago
        In Portland the major and governor have ordered police to stand down. Rioters even occupied an area for a week or more, you might recall news stories about chaz/chop? When your neighborhood is violently overtaken by an occupying force and the government does nothing, what do you call that? And of course Portland is not the only city to have made the police stand down and refused to call in the national guard after 3 months now of nightly riots, they're just the most egregious. >Are you trying to make this about the pandemic? I'm not trying to make this about any one thing, but I think it's foolish to imagine that the pandemic lockdowns have no impact on the proverbial temperature in the room. > It will be ended when cops stop murdering black people. That seems like a more copacetic solution than escalating violence. Police violence against black people is a problem in every way except statistically.
  - gwright 6y ago
    Without trying to pick sides, the argument would be that these redistributive programs will not enhance public safety but instead will make things worse. For those who can afford it, the safety "gap" will be addressed by private security forces, gated communities, or simply re-locating (and taking their tax dollars with them).
    - metamet 6y ago
      And there's an opposite argument to that, that the police would be able to properly allocate the appropriate officers to where they're needed. Right now, officers are trained and conditioned in a way that keeps their gun at the forefront of responses. Especially in Minneapolis, where--as of six years ago--96% of the MPD were not from Minneapolis, but commuted from surrounding suburbs, there's an "us vs them" occupier mentality that results from not being a public servant in your own neighborhood. Many MPD cops openly talk about Minneapolis being akin to entering a warzone. If we had people properly trained in deescalating non-violent or domestic situations, who people would feel confident in calling because they wouldn't be worried about somehow getting shot, the armed officers would be able to focus their efforts on the situations requiring their presence. It's a complicated situation. But it's been shown time and again that our system isn't necessarily working, and it would be beneficial to look at other approaches and countries for guidance.
      - gwright 6y ago
        Improved training requires more money, not less.
        metamet 6y ago
        "Defund the police" doesn't mean "tax break for citizens". It means reallocating those funds, which emphasizes training. There's very little oversight of how the police spend their money, which leads to instances like Snoqualmie purchasing a mine-resistant armored vehicle instead of investing in training.
        6y ago
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

swader999 6y ago

Maybe goal was the wrong word choice. The end result will be more private forces.

shirakawasuna 6y ago
Why do you say that? The calls are for redistributing the funds to other municipal forces or programs.
- LegitShady 6y ago
  With reduced policing and increased chaos and rioting it seems logical that those with means will employ private security forces. It's the same reason guns are selling like crazy, with new gun owners at all-time high. I fear a situation where because of empathy the state has given up the monopoly on force by essentially allowing violent riots that destroy individuals livelihoods, and those individuals will look for some other way to secure themselves and their property.
  - shirakawasuna 6y ago
    > With reduced policing and increased chaos and rioting it seems logical that those with means will employ private security forces. Why do you believe chaos and rioting will be the outcome of reworking policing? That "chaos" and riots are a direct result of the status quo of violent and often racist policing.
    - Consultant32452 6y ago
      I disagree. The chaos and riots are a direct result of weak leadership. When the mayor and governor practically declare a "purge" this is what you get. This would happen in any place and any time in which the government stands down and tells the civilian population they are on their own. We've been locked down for months and it seems like the only thing that's legal to do is burn down buildings and rob stores. This will only be ended with overwhelming violence. Either the state needs to step up and accept their role/responsibility as the monopoly holder on violence, or I fear the general population will. And if the average joe does it, it'll be in the form of mass killings at rallies, which no one wants.
      - shirakawasuna 6y ago
        > I disagree. They're literally a response to George Floyd being murdered. The straw that broke the camel's back. Every single protest has chanting of the high-profile cases of black people being murdered by police. > The chaos and riots are a direct result of weak leadership. When the mayor and governor practically declare a "purge" this is what you get. I have no idea what this is referring to. > This would happen in any place and any time in which the government stands down and tells the civilian population they are on their own. When the government stands down from what? Civilian population on their own for what? I have so many questions. > We've been locked down for months and it seems like the only thing that's legal to do is burn down buildings and rob stores. Are you trying to make this about the pandemic? > This will only be ended with overwhelming violence. Either the state needs to step up and accept their role/responsibility as the monopoly holder on violence, or I fear the general population will. And if the average joe does it, it'll be in the form of mass killings at rallies, which no one wants. It will be ended when cops stop murdering black people. That seems like a more copacetic solution than escalating violence.
        Consultant32452 6y ago
        In Portland the major and governor have ordered police to stand down. Rioters even occupied an area for a week or more, you might recall news stories about chaz/chop? When your neighborhood is violently overtaken by an occupying force and the government does nothing, what do you call that? And of course Portland is not the only city to have made the police stand down and refused to call in the national guard after 3 months now of nightly riots, they're just the most egregious. >Are you trying to make this about the pandemic? I'm not trying to make this about any one thing, but I think it's foolish to imagine that the pandemic lockdowns have no impact on the proverbial temperature in the room. > It will be ended when cops stop murdering black people. That seems like a more copacetic solution than escalating violence. Police violence against black people is a problem in every way except statistically.
- gwright 6y ago
  Without trying to pick sides, the argument would be that these redistributive programs will not enhance public safety but instead will make things worse. For those who can afford it, the safety "gap" will be addressed by private security forces, gated communities, or simply re-locating (and taking their tax dollars with them).
  - metamet 6y ago
    And there's an opposite argument to that, that the police would be able to properly allocate the appropriate officers to where they're needed. Right now, officers are trained and conditioned in a way that keeps their gun at the forefront of responses. Especially in Minneapolis, where--as of six years ago--96% of the MPD were not from Minneapolis, but commuted from surrounding suburbs, there's an "us vs them" occupier mentality that results from not being a public servant in your own neighborhood. Many MPD cops openly talk about Minneapolis being akin to entering a warzone. If we had people properly trained in deescalating non-violent or domestic situations, who people would feel confident in calling because they wouldn't be worried about somehow getting shot, the armed officers would be able to focus their efforts on the situations requiring their presence. It's a complicated situation. But it's been shown time and again that our system isn't necessarily working, and it would be beneficial to look at other approaches and countries for guidance.
    - gwright 6y ago
      Improved training requires more money, not less.
      - metamet 6y ago
        "Defund the police" doesn't mean "tax break for citizens". It means reallocating those funds, which emphasizes training. There's very little oversight of how the police spend their money, which leads to instances like Snoqualmie purchasing a mine-resistant armored vehicle instead of investing in training.
        6y ago
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]