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It’s probably a mistake to even try to comment here, it feels like wading into a battlefield where words don’t even mean what they say. This survey tells us wh
by zaroth 6y ago
It’s probably a mistake to even try to comment here, it feels like wading into a battlefield where words don’t even mean what they say.
This survey tells us what I thought we already knew for decades now. Black Americans, particular those living in high poverty and high crime areas, overwhelmingly support increased police funding and increased police presence in their communities.
While some protestors who are carrying signs like “Defund the police” may not take the slogan at face value, the ones spray painting “Fuck 12” or “ACAB” across their local courthouse certainly do, and they do not speak for the people responding to this Gallup poll.
The literal attacks on police (and police infrastructure) appear to be an intentional destabilization effort in order to neuter policing capacity within a community, resulting in increased violent crime (i.e. the “Fergusson effect”). While I think there are many well-meaning and good intentioned peaceful protestors that initially joined with “BLM”, the “Defund the police” movement has been hijacked by radical anarchists who professionally organize riots (there’s another term for this I won’t use) and absolutely believe police should be abolished.
National public perception of BLM which initially spiked positively after Floyd has been decreasing and overall become much more polarized. [1]
[1] - https://civiqs.com/results/black_lives_matter?annotations=true&uncertainty=true&zoomIn=true https://civiqs.com/results/black_lives_matter?annotations=tr...
- john_moscow 6y agoThe media is trying to portray it as a stand-off between Black and White, but I think it's more of a class thing: people that think their position in the society is fair vs. those who are unhappy with it. I would say, there are 4 groups involved: 1. Hard-working Blacks. Against gangs. Against violence. Pro police. Pro civilization. Don't really hate Whites. 2. Short-sighted Blacks. Pro gangs. Against education. Don't have a high-paying job. Plenty of free time. Often substance abuse. Unhappy with their lives. Feel unfairly disadvantaged over Whites. 3. Hard-working Whites. Pretty much, the same as hard-working Blacks. Reasonable people are reasonable regardless of their race. 4. Short-sighted Whites. Unhappy with their lives. Didn't put much effort in education, mastering hard skills, etc. Do have a better starting point than the short-sighted Blacks due to their parents' efforts. Feel unfairly advantaged over group #2 and jealous towards group #3. The thing is, groups #1 and #3 are busy with their work, while groups #2 and #4 are extremely vocal. So the click-driven media makes it look like there's a problem between the Black and Whites. While, in reality, groups #1 and #3 (a.k.a. silent majority) are happily working together, while groups #2 and #4 are stirring up the pot.
- ejanus 6y agoGreat classification.
- ejanus 6y agoI do know that this classification doesn't take into consideration what leads to poverty and social mobility.
- refresher 6y agoAll of these feel grossly oversimplified, but #2 and 4 especially. Many of the people protesting that are black, for example, may be unhappy with their lives and don't have high paying jobs, placing the blame on lack of opportunities in their area or the cost of education or whatever, but are far from being 'against education' and 'pro gangs'. To say that people who are vocal about current issues are not 'hard-working', are 'pro gang', 'against education', and not 'pro civilization' is borderline offensive.
- aww_dang 6y agoThe things you can't say are illustrative of the climate here.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- aaron_m04 6y agoI don't see any censorship here. Is there some viewpoint that you see being censored in this thread?
- aww_dang 6y agoI was referring to self-censorship. It is unfortunate when people can't _politely_ speak their mind. >It’s probably a mistake to even try to comment here... >...there’s another term for this I won’t use...
- shureluck 6y agoAgreed 100%. There is a large swath of american politics right now that is putting a clamp on free speech and you can see people reacting to it... even in here.
- monadic2 6y agoThey didn't poll funding.
- andromeduck 6y agoWhy is there such a big opinion gap between men and women? It seems robust across education, party and race.
- eru 6y agoMight be related to the more general case? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_gender_gap_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_gender_gap_in_the_Unite...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- PascLeRasc 6y agoI'm trying to search for professional riot organizers but all I can find is articles debunking the idea that this position exists [1] [2] [3]. Would you mind citing where you heard this? [1] https://www.vox.com/2020/6/3/21275720/george-floyd-protests-outside-agitators-ferguson-civil-rights-movement https://www.vox.com/2020/6/3/21275720/george-floyd-protests-... [2] https://www.snopes.com/ap/2020/06/03/false-claims-of-antifa-protesters-plague-small-u-s-cities/ https://www.snopes.com/ap/2020/06/03/false-claims-of-antifa-... [3] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/paid-protester-myth https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/paid-pro...
- aww_dang 6y ago>“There are groups paying these looters money to come in and they’re getting paid by the broken window,” said Chief Mylett. https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/bellevue-police-chief-says-looters-are-part-organized-crime-ring/HEMXIDSLOZAH5FE7H7BBEDHQB4/ https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/bellevue-police-chief-says-... Buzzfeed, Vox and even Snopes are a bit partisan on this.
- shirakawasuna 6y agoSo is KIRO and the Bellevue chief of police.
- GeneralMayhem 6y agoYeah, I think Snopes is a much more credible source than the chief of police here.
- aww_dang 6y agohttps://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/12/13/fact-checkers_choice_to_be_literal_or_contextual_138913.html https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/12/13/fact-c... https://ethicsalarms.com/2017/08/31/snopes-credibility-death-spiral-presenting-the-straw-man-fact-check/ https://ethicsalarms.com/2017/08/31/snopes-credibility-death... https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/08/23/robert-lee-espn/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/08/23/robert-lee-espn/ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41022954 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41022954 https://www.google.com/search?&q=%22snopes%22+strawman+-site%3Asnopes.com https://www.google.com/search?&q=%22snopes%22+strawman+-site...
- GeneralMayhem 6y ago>the ones spray painting “Fuck 12” or “ACAB” across their local courthouse certainly do Yes, graffiti is the most important issue in play here. Won't someone think of the cleaners! > The literal attacks on police (and police infrastructure) ...such as? > appear to be an intentional destabilization effort in order to neuter policing capacity within a community, resulting in increased violent crime (i.e. the “Fergusson effect”). [citation needed] >the “Defund the police” movement has been hijacked by radical anarchists who professionally organize riots [citation needed]. This sounds like a right-wing conspiracy theory akin to crisis actors and George Soros-funded protestors. >perception of BLM which initially spiked positively after Floyd has been decreasing and overall become much more polarized. And as we all know, people are rational when it comes to political topics, and polarization can only happen when the subject of said polarization changes or does something wrong. Just ask climate scientists!
- henriquez 6y agoI remember the rioters burning down the police precinct building just a couple miles away from here in Minneapolis. So I think it’s fair to say there have been attacks on police.
- shirakawasuna 6y agoBuildings are not people.
- henriquez 6y agoThere were people in the buildings that got burned, many people got injured in the mayhem.
- shirakawasuna 6y agoHow many people were in that Minneapolis precinct?
- 6y ago
- hitekker 6y agoI was receptive to your argument up until you mentioned the "Ferguson effect". The people of Ferguson Missouri were exploited by their policemen years before Garner was killed [1]. The Department of Justice found that the city itself had targeted African Americans, fining them at every turn, and imprisoning them when they couldn't pay. I find it hard to believe that these victims wanted to give their “protectors” even more money. Frankly, pretending the anger isn't real, that it's just a few professional rabble-rousers riling up the woefully ignorant-- is akin to the rhetoric China has weaponized in Hong Kong. It's not honest at all. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_effect [2] https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/doj-finds-ferguson-targeted-african-americans-used-courts-mainly-to-increase-revenue/article_d561d303-1fe5-56b7-b4ca-3a5cc9a75c82.html https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/doj-fin...
- uncletaco 6y agoMichael Brown was Ferguson, not Eric Garner.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- swader999 6y agoThe end goal of these defund movements will be to replace police with private forces.
- shirakawasuna 6y agoThe goal of the defund movements is to balkanize police duties so that the people tasked with these duties have appropriate training, weaponry (if any), etc, to place more money into community development and fighting poverty, and to increase civilian oversight, since there have been decades and decades of attempts to reform the police and it does not work.
- swader999 6y agoMaybe goal was the wrong word choice. The end result will be more private forces.
- shirakawasuna 6y agoWhy do you say that? The calls are for redistributing the funds to other municipal forces or programs.
- LegitShady 6y agoWith reduced policing and increased chaos and rioting it seems logical that those with means will employ private security forces. It's the same reason guns are selling like crazy, with new gun owners at all-time high. I fear a situation where because of empathy the state has given up the monopoly on force by essentially allowing violent riots that destroy individuals livelihoods, and those individuals will look for some other way to secure themselves and their property.
- shirakawasuna 6y ago> With reduced policing and increased chaos and rioting it seems logical that those with means will employ private security forces. Why do you believe chaos and rioting will be the outcome of reworking policing? That "chaos" and riots are a direct result of the status quo of violent and often racist policing.
- bastardoperator 6y agoIt's only a mistake when you take a single poll, one from a source that has been questionable for over 40 years, and start making wild assertions. I don't see the data here to support "overwhelmingly support increased police funding". How did Gallup determine all of the poll takers were actually black americans over the phone? The whole thing is silly, I'd take it with a grain of salt. Police are doing too many jobs, and a lot of it has little to do with preventing, stopping, or investigating crime. Mental health, drug addiction, family intervention, school behavior, tenet evictions, social services. We should defund the police, but only because we should fund agencies that enable police to focus on emergency response, investigating and preventing crime versus the later. I think YOU personally don't like the BLM movement, that's okay, but just say it.