9 ms·

Having a demilitarised civilian police force maintaining order through the consent of the public has been a thing since the 1820s. I’d like to see how Americans

Having a demilitarised civilian police force maintaining order through the consent of the public has been a thing since the 1820s. I’d like to see how Americans would respond to a police force formed with a modern version of the peelian principles as its guiding rule set. In my opinion a huge amount of damage has been done by the deliberate choice to act aggressively and quell the protests by ever greater force, and that damage has been done to the respect of the legitimacy of the power police forces hold. People aren’t going to cooperate with a force they see as an armed occupier. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

chroem- 6y ago
A point that often gets lost in the discussion is that the United States, having no gendarmarie [1], has a police force that is less militarized than many European nations. Gendarmaries are literally a branch of the armed forces for the sole purpose of internal policing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmarie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmarie
- samatman 6y ago
  Is Gendarmarie French for National Guard or something?
  - chroem- 6y ago
    No, it's a different concept. The gendarmarie is specifically internal military police. The Gendarmerie Nationale [1] and Garde Nationale [2] are separate entities. There is some minor overlap, but they have fundamentally different mission statements. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_(France) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_(France) This pattern is mirrored across other European nations as well, and is not exclusive to France.
- anigbrowl 6y ago
  This is true in a de jure sense, but nonsensical in a de facto sense. Simply comparing video footage of riots in france vs the US shows the US police police to be considerably more heavily equipped and aggressively inclined.
  - refurb 6y ago
    What? Have you watched any of the riot video from France?[1] Lots of tear gas and at the end, the police corral the crowd under a bridge and then hit them with batons when they start to leave. Seem at a minimum as rough as US police if not more. [1]
    - anigbrowl 6y ago
      I would hardly have mentioned video footage and urged people to draw comparisons using it if I hadn't watched any. Miss me with the theatrics, please.
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
Nobody is trying to quell protests. I don’t know how that misconception is still alive. The problem is the rioting. Nobody would be trying to disperse crowds if everyone was peaceful.
- throwawaysea 6y ago
  Yep. In Seattle the vast majority of protests had no issues, because they were peaceful, permitted, and constructive. Literally the only ones that ran into problems with the police were the ones that were breaking the law, violating police orders, committing violence, blocking highways, etc. Those particular situations were often claimed to be “peaceful protests” in social media but were definitely just violent rioting and opportunistic destruction/theft. I have no idea how people have fallen for the misleading narrative that violence was caused by police. It’s a textbook example of either the naivety of an emotionally charged mob, or incredible social media marketing, or both. Unfortunately many well-meaning protesters were also swept up in events that were subsumed by antifa/far left groups whose aim was confrontation and violence. For them, the coming backlash against their movement (due to violence) is going to sting.
- lettergram 6y ago
  Today I watched a police officer in kenosha wisconsin get knocked unconscious with a brick. The fellow police officers picked him up and dragged him away - while the crowd changed "Fuck the police" and recorded it. In the same vein, I saw store owners starting to shoot at protestors. I suspect, generally, all parties would rather have police keeping the peace. No one wants a gun battle in the streets as people try to protect their property from looters. I'm not 100% sure what I'd do in this case, but these are not friendly protests. I'm finding the police remarkably restrained. Even in some of these videos we are seeing, people are taking police officers weapons and / or assaulting a police officer before they open fire. If you're attacking someone who's armed (police officer or not) you should be prepared to suffer the consequences. (I'm not saying all cases are like this, just mentioning that there's a clear tilt to the coverage here).
  - eanzenberg 6y ago
djsumdog 6y ago
> act aggressively and quell the protests I have trouble with this view. I don't see it. I've lived in a few protest capitals, in different countries, and I've even been on organizing teams for protests. Polices are always either just there, or they escort specifically, unless there's that one group of shitheads that wants to cause trouble. Portland is greatly misportrayed by the media. NY Times and USA Today show people shaking a fence. You jump to AndyNgo and there's video of people sawing through fences with power tools. Political cartoonist like Matt Bors say police are afraid of laser pointers. People are using green lasers that can blind people, and may have blinded at least three federal officers. People I know there say it's pretty normal for a few hours, and then at night, a lot of anarco-anticaps cause a shit ton of damage. Police are not actively quelling protests. I think most of them are fine with people just protesting. Police do want to stop riots. Looting is destroying cities and should be stopped. CHAZ was a nightmare where the police stopped showing up when businesses and residents repeatably called them[0]. I watched police cruisers on fire in Chicago back in May, and two weekends ago businesses took a second massive hit. The bigger chains are open again, but many small stores may be closed for good. Not all police officers are good, but it's insane to think the majority of them are psychos. The vast majority of people I know who are police, want to do the right thing. There was a time when local police would turn fire hoses on peaceful protestors and release dogs. It's what turned the nation towards ML King and the movement he stood for, because America wanted to stand against the violence. When protestors burn down gas stations and car dealerships, the American people will still turn against the violence. [0]: https://battlepenguin.video/videos/watch/9f81cd38-3ee9-4f26-bd19-44fea7966c27 https://battlepenguin.video/videos/watch/9f81cd38-3ee9-4f26-...
- marricks 6y ago
  That's patently ridiculous. There's dozens and dozens of incidents like the videos I have listed below of police just brutalizing people, and they've done this to journalists too. Police are angry and want to violently stop protestors. Pretty sure police officers nightly beating of protestors, pulling off masks and pepper spraying their eyes and assaulting reporters is a very direct attempt at quelling descent. - police pulling down mask to pepper spray protestor in the eyes while pinned to the ground: https://twitter.com/_WhatRiot/status/1292012255714787330 https://twitter.com/_WhatRiot/status/1292012255714787330 - police randomly puncturing a support vans tires, they have done this on multiple occasions for no real reason: https://twitter.com/ScottHech/status/1291711270903844867 https://twitter.com/ScottHech/status/1291711270903844867 - police beating and kicking an unresisting protestor: https://twitter.com/1misanthrophile/status/1295962399103545345 https://twitter.com/1misanthrophile/status/12959623991035453... - more police jabbing protestor with batons: https://twitter.com/danielvmedia/status/1292228819588452359 https://twitter.com/danielvmedia/status/1292228819588452359
spamizbad 6y ago
This is my view as well. I think the American public has unrealistic expectations of what law enforcement can actually do in these situations and further, what federal law enforcement and the national guard is capable of. It seems like when they sent DHS down to Portland it ended up just exacerbating the situation. No "order" was restored; they just left after a week or so. And I think more broadly, the "tough on crime" crowd needs to recognize the limits of its own ideology. We have the largest prison system in the world and still do not have law & order on our streets.

chroem- 6y ago

A point that often gets lost in the discussion is that the United States, having no gendarmarie [1], has a police force that is less militarized than many European nations. Gendarmaries are literally a branch of the armed forces for the sole purpose of internal policing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmarie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmarie

samatman 6y ago
Is Gendarmarie French for National Guard or something?
- chroem- 6y ago
  No, it's a different concept. The gendarmarie is specifically internal military police. The Gendarmerie Nationale [1] and Garde Nationale [2] are separate entities. There is some minor overlap, but they have fundamentally different mission statements. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_(France) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_(France) This pattern is mirrored across other European nations as well, and is not exclusive to France.
anigbrowl 6y ago
This is true in a de jure sense, but nonsensical in a de facto sense. Simply comparing video footage of riots in france vs the US shows the US police police to be considerably more heavily equipped and aggressively inclined.
- refurb 6y ago
  What? Have you watched any of the riot video from France?[1] Lots of tear gas and at the end, the police corral the crowd under a bridge and then hit them with batons when they start to leave. Seem at a minimum as rough as US police if not more. [1]
  - anigbrowl 6y ago
    I would hardly have mentioned video footage and urged people to draw comparisons using it if I hadn't watched any. Miss me with the theatrics, please.

lawnchair_larry 6y ago

Nobody is trying to quell protests. I don’t know how that misconception is still alive. The problem is the rioting. Nobody would be trying to disperse crowds if everyone was peaceful.

throwawaysea 6y ago
Yep. In Seattle the vast majority of protests had no issues, because they were peaceful, permitted, and constructive. Literally the only ones that ran into problems with the police were the ones that were breaking the law, violating police orders, committing violence, blocking highways, etc. Those particular situations were often claimed to be “peaceful protests” in social media but were definitely just violent rioting and opportunistic destruction/theft. I have no idea how people have fallen for the misleading narrative that violence was caused by police. It’s a textbook example of either the naivety of an emotionally charged mob, or incredible social media marketing, or both. Unfortunately many well-meaning protesters were also swept up in events that were subsumed by antifa/far left groups whose aim was confrontation and violence. For them, the coming backlash against their movement (due to violence) is going to sting.
lettergram 6y ago
Today I watched a police officer in kenosha wisconsin get knocked unconscious with a brick. The fellow police officers picked him up and dragged him away - while the crowd changed "Fuck the police" and recorded it. In the same vein, I saw store owners starting to shoot at protestors. I suspect, generally, all parties would rather have police keeping the peace. No one wants a gun battle in the streets as people try to protect their property from looters. I'm not 100% sure what I'd do in this case, but these are not friendly protests. I'm finding the police remarkably restrained. Even in some of these videos we are seeing, people are taking police officers weapons and / or assaulting a police officer before they open fire. If you're attacking someone who's armed (police officer or not) you should be prepared to suffer the consequences. (I'm not saying all cases are like this, just mentioning that there's a clear tilt to the coverage here).
- eanzenberg 6y ago

djsumdog 6y ago

> act aggressively and quell the protests I have trouble with this view. I don't see it. I've lived in a few protest capitals, in different countries, and I've even been on organizing teams for protests. Polices are always either just there, or they escort specifically, unless there's that one group of shitheads that wants to cause trouble. Portland is greatly misportrayed by the media. NY Times and USA Today show people shaking a fence. You jump to AndyNgo and there's video of people sawing through fences with power tools. Political cartoonist like Matt Bors say police are afraid of laser pointers. People are using green lasers that can blind people, and may have blinded at least three federal officers. People I know there say it's pretty normal for a few hours, and then at night, a lot of anarco-anticaps cause a shit ton of damage. Police are not actively quelling protests. I think most of them are fine with people just protesting. Police do want to stop riots. Looting is destroying cities and should be stopped. CHAZ was a nightmare where the police stopped showing up when businesses and residents repeatably called them[0]. I watched police cruisers on fire in Chicago back in May, and two weekends ago businesses took a second massive hit. The bigger chains are open again, but many small stores may be closed for good. Not all police officers are good, but it's insane to think the majority of them are psychos. The vast majority of people I know who are police, want to do the right thing. There was a time when local police would turn fire hoses on peaceful protestors and release dogs. It's what turned the nation towards ML King and the movement he stood for, because America wanted to stand against the violence. When protestors burn down gas stations and car dealerships, the American people will still turn against the violence. [0]: https://battlepenguin.video/videos/watch/9f81cd38-3ee9-4f26-bd19-44fea7966c27 https://battlepenguin.video/videos/watch/9f81cd38-3ee9-4f26-...

marricks 6y ago
That's patently ridiculous. There's dozens and dozens of incidents like the videos I have listed below of police just brutalizing people, and they've done this to journalists too. Police are angry and want to violently stop protestors. Pretty sure police officers nightly beating of protestors, pulling off masks and pepper spraying their eyes and assaulting reporters is a very direct attempt at quelling descent. - police pulling down mask to pepper spray protestor in the eyes while pinned to the ground: https://twitter.com/_WhatRiot/status/1292012255714787330 https://twitter.com/_WhatRiot/status/1292012255714787330 - police randomly puncturing a support vans tires, they have done this on multiple occasions for no real reason: https://twitter.com/ScottHech/status/1291711270903844867 https://twitter.com/ScottHech/status/1291711270903844867 - police beating and kicking an unresisting protestor: https://twitter.com/1misanthrophile/status/1295962399103545345 https://twitter.com/1misanthrophile/status/12959623991035453... - more police jabbing protestor with batons: https://twitter.com/danielvmedia/status/1292228819588452359 https://twitter.com/danielvmedia/status/1292228819588452359

spamizbad 6y ago

This is my view as well. I think the American public has unrealistic expectations of what law enforcement can actually do in these situations and further, what federal law enforcement and the national guard is capable of. It seems like when they sent DHS down to Portland it ended up just exacerbating the situation. No "order" was restored; they just left after a week or so. And I think more broadly, the "tough on crime" crowd needs to recognize the limits of its own ideology. We have the largest prison system in the world and still do not have law & order on our streets.