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It’s hard to blame people for misunderstanding slogans that supposedly don’t mean what the plain meaning would suggest. Perhaps the young activists should say w

It’s hard to blame people for misunderstanding slogans that supposedly don’t mean what the plain meaning would suggest. Perhaps the young activists should say what they mean and mean what they say and then all those “older folks” might not miss the point.

slavik81 6y ago
'I do,' Alice hastily replied... `that's the same thing, you know.'
- slavik81 6y ago
  That is to say, bradleyjg's phrasing reminded me of one of my favourite bits of Alice in Wonderland on saying what you mean and meaning what you say: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Alice's_Adventures_in_Wonderland_(1866)/Chapter_7#97 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Alice's_Adventures_in_Wonderl...
peterwoerner 6y ago
They are engaging in a Motte and Bailey argument, perhaps unintentionally.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  "They" are many people. I suspect that many of them don't understand that it's a motte and bailey argument. But I suspect that some of them do understand, and are doing it deliberately.
judofyr 6y ago
> It’s hard to blame people for misunderstanding slogans that supposedly don’t mean what the plain meaning would suggest. I find it very easy to blame people who are not willing to spend 10 seconds researching what a movement stands for. We can't say that it's okay to read three words on a sign, interpret it in your own context, and then blame the movement when you don't "understand" it. It's a slogan! What do you expect for a less-than-five-word sentence that people can unite under?
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I'd expect something that's not so much more extreme than the idea it's trying to communicate. If people march around saying "tear down the bridges", tagging bridges with little Xs where the demolitions should start, I'm not gonna stick around to hear that they actually mean rural highways should be better funded.
  - judofyr 6y ago
    Why not? Why are you not willing to invest time into understanding what other people are willing to march in the street for?
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      I'm willing to invest time, but I start from the assumption that the slogans and symbols of the marchers are honest attempts to explain what they're marching for.
- JoshuaDavid 6y ago
  At a minimum, I'd hope that if you asked 5 people who were uniting under that less-than-five word slogan what that slogan meant, in terms of desired policy, that at least 3 of those 5 people would agree with one another.
  - p49k 6y ago
    Anyone who has had discussions with such supporters in good faith would be aware that they are closely aligned on the central points of reform.
    - JoshuaDavid 6y ago
      All the supporters I have talked to are in favor of "reform", yes. The specifics of what exactly it means to "defund" the police varies pretty significantly between supporters though -- some say "obviously we still need police but maybe try sending in a social worker for the homeless guy who is lying unconscious onthe ground" and others say "defund means entirely defund, as in abolish, I mean what I say" (I'm assuming that is the slogan in question, but not entirely positive because the post I was replying to was vagueposting).

slavik81 6y ago

'I do,' Alice hastily replied... `that's the same thing, you know.'

slavik81 6y ago
That is to say, bradleyjg's phrasing reminded me of one of my favourite bits of Alice in Wonderland on saying what you mean and meaning what you say: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Alice's_Adventures_in_Wonderland_(1866)/Chapter_7#97 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Alice's_Adventures_in_Wonderl...

peterwoerner 6y ago

They are engaging in a Motte and Bailey argument, perhaps unintentionally.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
"They" are many people. I suspect that many of them don't understand that it's a motte and bailey argument. But I suspect that some of them do understand, and are doing it deliberately.

judofyr 6y ago

> It’s hard to blame people for misunderstanding slogans that supposedly don’t mean what the plain meaning would suggest. I find it very easy to blame people who are not willing to spend 10 seconds researching what a movement stands for. We can't say that it's okay to read three words on a sign, interpret it in your own context, and then blame the movement when you don't "understand" it. It's a slogan! What do you expect for a less-than-five-word sentence that people can unite under?

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
I'd expect something that's not so much more extreme than the idea it's trying to communicate. If people march around saying "tear down the bridges", tagging bridges with little Xs where the demolitions should start, I'm not gonna stick around to hear that they actually mean rural highways should be better funded.
- judofyr 6y ago
  Why not? Why are you not willing to invest time into understanding what other people are willing to march in the street for?
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I'm willing to invest time, but I start from the assumption that the slogans and symbols of the marchers are honest attempts to explain what they're marching for.
JoshuaDavid 6y ago
At a minimum, I'd hope that if you asked 5 people who were uniting under that less-than-five word slogan what that slogan meant, in terms of desired policy, that at least 3 of those 5 people would agree with one another.
- p49k 6y ago
  Anyone who has had discussions with such supporters in good faith would be aware that they are closely aligned on the central points of reform.
  - JoshuaDavid 6y ago
    All the supporters I have talked to are in favor of "reform", yes. The specifics of what exactly it means to "defund" the police varies pretty significantly between supporters though -- some say "obviously we still need police but maybe try sending in a social worker for the homeless guy who is lying unconscious onthe ground" and others say "defund means entirely defund, as in abolish, I mean what I say" (I'm assuming that is the slogan in question, but not entirely positive because the post I was replying to was vagueposting).