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> It seems to me that reinvesting budgets spent on surplus humvees on more/better school counselors is a perfectly reasonable goal. The level of "defund" peopl

> It seems to me that reinvesting budgets spent on surplus humvees on more/better school counselors is a perfectly reasonable goal. The level of "defund" people are advocating for varies pretty wildly. Yes, reallocating budget is perhaps a reasonable thing. A non trivial number of the protesters are advocating for complete elimination of the police though. Oddly enough, I'd expect the widespread riots that have continued all summer long will have the exact opposite effect in the medium to long term.

pwinnski 6y ago
> the widespread riots that have continued all summer long Uh, what? No. Just, no.
- war1025 6y ago
  The net effect of people hearing "Black Lives Matter protesters clashed with police again last night" on the news for an entire summer is going to be a giant step backwards for whatever BLM is actually trying to achieve. That is true whether or not the riots have actually been geographically widespread.
  - strathmeyer 6y ago
    I'm an American and have only seen the police rioting. Defunding the police is the most reasonable option I have heard in my lifetime. Seems like the perfect solution, there is nothing bad to say about it, it's opponents are left to make up "widespread rioting".
    - Rebelgecko 6y ago
      Would you mind elaborating? Are you not aware of the rioting, looting, and arson that has stricken many cities across America?
    - arkis22 6y ago
      > I'm an American and have only seen the police rioting I'm an American. I can't believe you can say that with a straight face. As soon as you say that ONLY the police are doing something wrong means you have an understanding of the situation that no facts will fix.
      - shirakawasuna 6y ago
        As someone who was personally targeted by violent police for kneeling and holding my hands up, let me assure you that they are correct. Have you gone to any protests where the police used chemical weapons?
        arkis22 6y ago
        Were you personally targeted? As in there was a line of people that they walked past to personally give you a dose of chemical weapons? Gas is a chemical weapon. Pepper spray is a chemical weapon. Please don't compare Assad's use of chemical weapons to tear gas.
        shirakawasuna 6y ago
        I mean I was targeted. By personally I meant that I had that personal experience. It was as part of a group - the cops tend to use "collective punishment" when it comes to protests, after all. The use of tear gas is the use of a chemical weapon and a war crime, but when you turn it against civilians in your own country we give it a pass.
        arkis22 6y ago
        So you weren't personally targeted. In what way were you targeted? Were you doing nothing to arouse police attention? I think most first world countries have a gas they can use for riot control. Are you insisting that most first world countries are regularly engaging in what you would call war crimes... that are worse than other countries?
    - _-david-_ 6y ago
      Over 30 people have been killed by the rioters not the police during these violent riots,
      - jessaustin 6y ago
        Police kill 1000 people in USA every year.
        lawnchair_larry 6y ago
        That’s not a useful or relevant statistic and you know it.
        NotQuantum 6y ago
        Perhaps the statistic that 40% of cops are domestic abusers is relevant to you. https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-...
        _-david-_ 6y ago
        Rioters committing murder is not related to cops committing domestic abuse.
        lawnchair_larry 6y ago
        It’s not, because it was debunked ages ago.
        jessaustin 6y ago
        I'm just trying to put GP's dubious numbers in their proper context. Of those 1000, how many would you estimate are killed without reasonable cause? Could it be 30? 300? 970? We shouldn't turn off our brains just because somebody said someone died. USA society is fine with the carnage on the highway and throughout the Middle East; I think we can deal with a tiny amount of carnage in order to improve.
    - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
      This is hilariously dishonest. How can you expect to be taken seriously?
  - shirakawasuna 6y ago
    That usually means that the police used fairly extreme violence and chemical weapons on protesters and received maybe a handful of water bottles thrown at them after doing so. Your news sources have an agenda and tend to get these things wrong. Go to a protest and see for yourself if you want to viscerally watch them lie in real time.
    - zo1 6y ago
      > "Your news sources have an agenda and tend to get these things wrong." So do yours, let's not pretend otherwise.
      - shirakawasuna 6y ago
        My sources are video and personal direct knowledge.
        zo1 6y ago
        The sources for the other side also include video and personal direct knowledge.
        shirakawasuna 6y ago
        No they don't.
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    Polling does not support your view. Support for BLM has risen more during this summer than in the previous several years combined. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/10/upshot/black-lives-matter-attitudes.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/10/upshot/black-...
    - war1025 6y ago
      They got a huge initial boost. It's dragged on to the point that I fully expect support to start dropping precipitously. Especially as the protests have become continuously more destructive riots.
      - pwinnski 6y ago
        > the protests have become continuously more destructive riots This just doesn't seem to be happening as you believe it does. Campaign advertising is not news.
        war1025 6y ago
        > Campaign advertising is not news. No, but Twitter live streams aren't campaign advertising. The protests are demonstrably violent and destructive.
ianleeclark 6y ago
> A non trivial number of the protesters are advocating for complete elimination of the police though. This categorically isn't defunding police, this is police abolition, and getting them confused is likely why you think it's a luxury belief because I fail to see what's luxurious about getting tear gassed every Friday/Saturday night or having the cops stand aside letting groups like the Proud Boys brutalize protestors and journalists. There's nothing luxurious about getting tear gassed for 3 months straight, it's a genuine struggle. What's luxurious is you and I.
- aortega 6y ago
  >There's nothing luxurious about getting tear gassed for 3 months straight Why are you being tear gassed so often? I've been in US many times, for many months, I have never been tear gassed by police.
  - ianleeclark 6y ago
    You seem a little out of the loop. You might want to go back through the past few months worth of news.
    - dang 6y ago
      It looks like your account has been using HN primarily for political battle. That's not allowed here, regardless of which specific politics you support or abhor. If you'd like to understand why, there are extensive past explanations at these links. (If you or anyone reads those explanations and still has a question that isn't answered there, I'd like to know what it is.) https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use this site as intended, we'd appreciate it.
jjoonathan 6y ago
> A non trivial number of the protesters are advocating for complete elimination of the police though. That's certainly what the conservative news outlets are reporting, but is it actually true?
- war1025 6y ago
  > but is it actually true? Perception is all that matters, and a large chunk of the country follows conservative media. Unfortunately the country is doing a great job of lining up behind their preferred propaganda outlets rather than looking for truth. This is true for both Liberals and Conservatives. We hear what we want to hear.
  - bawolff 6y ago
    You were the one who brought it up to support your argument. Your argument doesn't seem to rest on what the public preception is but in what is actually happening. So yes i would say the veracity of the statement is relavent here.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ggurface123 6y ago
  Here's an article from the New York Times stating that defund actually means abolish. Do you consider them a conservative news outlet? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...
  - shirakawasuna 6y ago
    I would consider them a vehicle of capital that tends to do a terrible job covering these things. Conservative-adjascent.
- dbrueck 6y ago
  Judge for yourself: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/how-i-became-police-abolitionist/613540/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/how-i-beca... https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/minneapolis-city-council-announces-plan-to-dismantle-police-department/89-a2260d74-4e21-4069-9b06-735aafba95cd https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/minne...

pwinnski 6y ago

> the widespread riots that have continued all summer long Uh, what? No. Just, no.

war1025 6y ago
The net effect of people hearing "Black Lives Matter protesters clashed with police again last night" on the news for an entire summer is going to be a giant step backwards for whatever BLM is actually trying to achieve. That is true whether or not the riots have actually been geographically widespread.
- strathmeyer 6y ago
  I'm an American and have only seen the police rioting. Defunding the police is the most reasonable option I have heard in my lifetime. Seems like the perfect solution, there is nothing bad to say about it, it's opponents are left to make up "widespread rioting".
  - Rebelgecko 6y ago
    Would you mind elaborating? Are you not aware of the rioting, looting, and arson that has stricken many cities across America?
  - arkis22 6y ago
    > I'm an American and have only seen the police rioting I'm an American. I can't believe you can say that with a straight face. As soon as you say that ONLY the police are doing something wrong means you have an understanding of the situation that no facts will fix.
    - shirakawasuna 6y ago
      As someone who was personally targeted by violent police for kneeling and holding my hands up, let me assure you that they are correct. Have you gone to any protests where the police used chemical weapons?
      - arkis22 6y ago
        Were you personally targeted? As in there was a line of people that they walked past to personally give you a dose of chemical weapons? Gas is a chemical weapon. Pepper spray is a chemical weapon. Please don't compare Assad's use of chemical weapons to tear gas.
        shirakawasuna 6y ago
        I mean I was targeted. By personally I meant that I had that personal experience. It was as part of a group - the cops tend to use "collective punishment" when it comes to protests, after all. The use of tear gas is the use of a chemical weapon and a war crime, but when you turn it against civilians in your own country we give it a pass.
        arkis22 6y ago
        So you weren't personally targeted. In what way were you targeted? Were you doing nothing to arouse police attention? I think most first world countries have a gas they can use for riot control. Are you insisting that most first world countries are regularly engaging in what you would call war crimes... that are worse than other countries?
  - _-david-_ 6y ago
    Over 30 people have been killed by the rioters not the police during these violent riots,
    - jessaustin 6y ago
      Police kill 1000 people in USA every year.
      - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
        That’s not a useful or relevant statistic and you know it.
        NotQuantum 6y ago
        Perhaps the statistic that 40% of cops are domestic abusers is relevant to you. https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-...
        _-david-_ 6y ago
        Rioters committing murder is not related to cops committing domestic abuse.
        lawnchair_larry 6y ago
        It’s not, because it was debunked ages ago.
        jessaustin 6y ago
        I'm just trying to put GP's dubious numbers in their proper context. Of those 1000, how many would you estimate are killed without reasonable cause? Could it be 30? 300? 970? We shouldn't turn off our brains just because somebody said someone died. USA society is fine with the carnage on the highway and throughout the Middle East; I think we can deal with a tiny amount of carnage in order to improve.
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    This is hilariously dishonest. How can you expect to be taken seriously?
- shirakawasuna 6y ago
  That usually means that the police used fairly extreme violence and chemical weapons on protesters and received maybe a handful of water bottles thrown at them after doing so. Your news sources have an agenda and tend to get these things wrong. Go to a protest and see for yourself if you want to viscerally watch them lie in real time.
  - zo1 6y ago
    > "Your news sources have an agenda and tend to get these things wrong." So do yours, let's not pretend otherwise.
    - shirakawasuna 6y ago
      My sources are video and personal direct knowledge.
      - zo1 6y ago
        The sources for the other side also include video and personal direct knowledge.
        shirakawasuna 6y ago
        No they don't.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  Polling does not support your view. Support for BLM has risen more during this summer than in the previous several years combined. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/10/upshot/black-lives-matter-attitudes.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/10/upshot/black-...
  - war1025 6y ago
    They got a huge initial boost. It's dragged on to the point that I fully expect support to start dropping precipitously. Especially as the protests have become continuously more destructive riots.
    - pwinnski 6y ago
      > the protests have become continuously more destructive riots This just doesn't seem to be happening as you believe it does. Campaign advertising is not news.
      - war1025 6y ago
        > Campaign advertising is not news. No, but Twitter live streams aren't campaign advertising. The protests are demonstrably violent and destructive.

ianleeclark 6y ago

> A non trivial number of the protesters are advocating for complete elimination of the police though. This categorically isn't defunding police, this is police abolition, and getting them confused is likely why you think it's a luxury belief because I fail to see what's luxurious about getting tear gassed every Friday/Saturday night or having the cops stand aside letting groups like the Proud Boys brutalize protestors and journalists. There's nothing luxurious about getting tear gassed for 3 months straight, it's a genuine struggle. What's luxurious is you and I.

aortega 6y ago
>There's nothing luxurious about getting tear gassed for 3 months straight Why are you being tear gassed so often? I've been in US many times, for many months, I have never been tear gassed by police.
- ianleeclark 6y ago
  You seem a little out of the loop. You might want to go back through the past few months worth of news.
  - dang 6y ago
    It looks like your account has been using HN primarily for political battle. That's not allowed here, regardless of which specific politics you support or abhor. If you'd like to understand why, there are extensive past explanations at these links. (If you or anyone reads those explanations and still has a question that isn't answered there, I'd like to know what it is.) https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use this site as intended, we'd appreciate it.

jjoonathan 6y ago

> A non trivial number of the protesters are advocating for complete elimination of the police though. That's certainly what the conservative news outlets are reporting, but is it actually true?

war1025 6y ago
> but is it actually true? Perception is all that matters, and a large chunk of the country follows conservative media. Unfortunately the country is doing a great job of lining up behind their preferred propaganda outlets rather than looking for truth. This is true for both Liberals and Conservatives. We hear what we want to hear.
- bawolff 6y ago
  You were the one who brought it up to support your argument. Your argument doesn't seem to rest on what the public preception is but in what is actually happening. So yes i would say the veracity of the statement is relavent here.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ggurface123 6y ago
Here's an article from the New York Times stating that defund actually means abolish. Do you consider them a conservative news outlet? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...
- shirakawasuna 6y ago
  I would consider them a vehicle of capital that tends to do a terrible job covering these things. Conservative-adjascent.
dbrueck 6y ago
Judge for yourself: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/how-i-became-police-abolitionist/613540/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/how-i-beca... https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/minneapolis-city-council-announces-plan-to-dismantle-police-department/89-a2260d74-4e21-4069-9b06-735aafba95cd https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/minne...