7 ms·

To improve police presence and interactions wouldn't you actually want to fund the police and make sure they go through proper training to ensure they can handl

by nprz 6y ago

To improve police presence and interactions wouldn't you actually want to fund the police and make sure they go through proper training to ensure they can handle difficult situations? A lack of funding would probably result in a worse trained police force, no?

dx87 6y ago
Pretty much. I keep seeing people here use the multi-year police academies in Europe as an example of why they have less issues with police brutality, while at the same time saying that the police in the USA need less resources.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  The police chief of the city in which I live, a suburb of Dallas, Texas, was asked why we haven't seen the sort of cases here that we've seen in Dallas and even other suburbs. His response was that we require all applicants to have a bachelors degree. Could be correlation rather than causation, of course.
  - refurb 6y ago
    The same city where a police officer broke into the wrong apartment, thinking it was hers, and killed the man inside? Not sure I'd be pointing fingers if I were the Dallas PD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean
  - refurb 6y ago
    The same city where a police officer broke into the wrong apartment, thinking it was hers, and killed an unarmed black man inside? Not sure I'd be pointing fingers if I were the Dallas PD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean
    - pwinnski 6y ago
      Reading comprehension: I said I live in "a suburb of Dallas," while the incident you reference happened in the city of Dallas itself. I even drew a contrast between my city and what "we've seen in Dallas and even other suburbs." You'd have been better off noticing the contrast I drew and talking about McKinney, another suburb of Dallas, in which a cop infamously stormed onto the scene and threw 15-year-old girl in a bikini to the concrete and pointed a gun at a teenage boy who objected.[0] But no, not that suburb either. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Texas_pool_party_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Texas_pool_party_incident
      - refurb 6y ago
        I missed that. But suburbs aren't exactly a flash point here. There are plenty of suburbs who don't only high degree holders who haven't had problems.
        pwinnski 6y ago
        Ferguson is a suburb of St Louis. Kenosha is a suburb of either Milwaukee or Chicago, depending on who you ask. McKinney is a suburb of Dallas. Most of the footage from "Minneapolis" was actually from suburbs of Minneapolis. Current political advertising is heavily focused on using current footage from protests and warning that our suburbs are next if the other candidate is elected. Police violence isn't only a suburban problem, but it is definitely also a suburban problem.
hundchenkatze 6y ago
I think the "defund the police" movement has a very unfortunate name. Many (hopefully most) people don't want to pull _all_ funding from the police. They want to appropriately redistribute funds. That means stopping spend on surplus military weapons and tanks, and instead put more money towards the proper training you mentioned.
- throwawaysea 6y ago
  This is not based in reality. How much money do you think police are spending on “surplus military weapons”? It is minimal and most of the purchase of surplus military items are mundane. They aren’t acquiring carriers and missiles. You mentioned tanks - are you literally claiming that local police departments are purchasing M1 Abrams battle tanks? Because that’s not happening. Keep in mind the total transfer of military surplus equipment to police departments is just $5.1B over the entire lifetime of the program, since 1997 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Support_Office https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Support_Offi...). The scale of this program has been completely blown out of proportion by activists. Here in Seattle, protesters/rioters have been calling for a 50% defunding despite 96% of police budget being spent on people expenses, and not “military weapons” like Twitter claims. See https://sccinsight.com/2020/06/30/understanding-the-seattle-police-department-budget/ https://sccinsight.com/2020/06/30/understanding-the-seattle-...
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    Didn’t you guys just lose the first black female police chief because of that screaming mob too? The irony...
    - shirakawasuna 6y ago
      There's no irony there and it was not a "screaming mob". I'm concerned about your sources of information. Chief Best stepped down after constantly lying about the police actions and the protesters for months. Best was hired against the recommendations of the federal consent decree that SPD is under because of repeated excessive force and racial profiling issues, hand-picked by the mayor. The reasons given for her stepping down are relatively boring and unlikely to be the real reason, which probably involves political calculus and the mayor.
scarface74 6y ago
It’s well known that ex military who become police are much less likely to be involved in a shooting and they are much better at de-escalating. We train the military much better than the police.
- hellotomyrars 6y ago
  The military connection is very interesting. You're right, of course. Military training is very rigorous and, more importantly, consistent. Police training is a wild hodgepodge and also sometimes basically non-existent. The other thing I have seen talked about in this context, and which I agree with, is that in the military you are trained as part of a larger unit and loyal to an even larger cause/organization. Police, on the other hand, are given a partner who they might serve with primarily for years almost-exclusivity. They become loyal to a very small group of people over their career and don't have the same esprit de corps as the military. To some degree I think they both attract dangerous/violent people who are joining for the wrong reasons. (The desire to hold power over others or just flat-out hurt people). But the Military is more likely to drum these people out, especially before the worst happens, where police don't.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Have you noticed how the military - even up to the generals - are generally always publicly respectful to the civilian command whether or not they agree with them? Can you say the same about police?
- jki275 6y ago
  As a 23 year veteran, I can tell you that statement is missing a ton of context, and almost certainly is very inaccurate. Most people in the military rarely if ever touch a firearm for their entire time in the military after they qualify with it in bootcamp - some don't even do that. De-escalation training? That's diametrically opposite of how an infantryman is trained, and totally irrelevant to anyone outside those combat arms fields. Most people in the military would never receive a single moment of training relevant to police work in their entire time in the military. What you might be seeing is that most veterans tend to be a bit older, a bit more mature, and perhaps tend to view a badge less as a power trip and more of a responsibility due to the experiences they've had. I can't say that for sure, but it makes a bit more sense than saying military are better trained than police, when the vast majority of military members get absolutely no relevant training in anything related to police work.
GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
Defunding the police addresses the overspending. Despite millions of dollars for training, outcomes in police interactions haven't gotten better. Purchasing military surplus is another area they've spent increased budgets on as well.
- bassman9000 6y ago
  outcomes in police interactions haven't gotten better. By which metric?
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    Well, the number of people killed by officers, and the number of officers killed in the line of duty are both metrics that have remained fairly steady. Overall violent crime rate looks pretty steady as well over the past decade, though it's much decreased from the 2000-2010 rates. It's not a single-metric question though. Probably not just a 10-20 metric question either.
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  Most major US cities are underspending, not overspending. Do you know what % is spent on military surplus? (Hint: barely anything)
- athms 6y ago
  >Purchasing military surplus is another area they've spent increased budgets on as well. Police only pay for shipping. If those costs are swelling their expenses, they have a tiny budget. The 1988 National Defense Authorization Act created a temporary program within the DoD to funnel surplus equipment to state law enforcement agencies involved in anti-drug activities at no cost other than shipping. The 1997 National Defense Authorization Act added anti-terrorism activities and made the program permanent.
zoolily 6y ago
I would love to see proper training, but it seems that much of the training is on pseudoscientific nonsense. See https://theintercept.com/2020/08/12/blueleaks-law-enforcement-police-lie-detection/ https://theintercept.com/2020/08/12/blueleaks-law-enforcemen... for some examples.
dv_dt 6y ago
You should look at how much of the budget the police dept takes of an average town. In my med-small town they're 50% of the city budget. Police depts are shockingly well funded compared to the problems they actually end up solving.
- Bostonian 6y ago
  In your town more money is spent on the police than the public schools? Certainly not in mine.
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    In much of USA the school district is a separate entity from the city. Often this is because many students live outside city limits.
  - dv_dt 6y ago
    My town may have something atypicial about its finances at 50%, if you look at the budget of San Jose it seems about $400m for city services and $200m for police and fire. I didn't pick it apart further between police/fire, but IIRC fire tends to have much smaller budgets than police depts. But I would say that's still shockingly large vs the budget for other city services.. (that's setting aside some large chunks for airports etc..., I was also a bit surprised SJ had a $4B budget and how much was for airport services). Edit: I guess looking at Oakland/Chicago, it's 50% or close to it too though. https://www.gq.com/story/cops-cost-billions https://www.gq.com/story/cops-cost-billions "Oakland PD receives nearly half of the city's discretionary spending( $264 million out of $592 million), dwarfing every other expenditure, including human services, parks and recreation, and transportation combined. A whopping 39 percent of Chicago's 2017 budget went to police, and still the department got even more money, peaking in 2020 with a 7 percent increase to nearly $1.8 billion. "
mindslight 6y ago
While training is important, the deeper problem is that of incentives. Our usual catchall way of discouraging uncivilized behavior is with the justice system - follow these laws or else. But when a perp can put on a uniform, commit violent crimes with impunity, and then not even be charged, the justice system has been coopted into something else. (Or coming at it from the other direction, when a person can be destroyed by that "justice system" for simply smoking a plant. The war on drug users is also a large part of how the rule of law has been undermined)

by nprz 6y ago

dx87 6y ago

Pretty much. I keep seeing people here use the multi-year police academies in Europe as an example of why they have less issues with police brutality, while at the same time saying that the police in the USA need less resources.

pwinnski 6y ago
The police chief of the city in which I live, a suburb of Dallas, Texas, was asked why we haven't seen the sort of cases here that we've seen in Dallas and even other suburbs. His response was that we require all applicants to have a bachelors degree. Could be correlation rather than causation, of course.
- refurb 6y ago
  The same city where a police officer broke into the wrong apartment, thinking it was hers, and killed the man inside? Not sure I'd be pointing fingers if I were the Dallas PD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean
- refurb 6y ago
  The same city where a police officer broke into the wrong apartment, thinking it was hers, and killed an unarmed black man inside? Not sure I'd be pointing fingers if I were the Dallas PD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    Reading comprehension: I said I live in "a suburb of Dallas," while the incident you reference happened in the city of Dallas itself. I even drew a contrast between my city and what "we've seen in Dallas and even other suburbs." You'd have been better off noticing the contrast I drew and talking about McKinney, another suburb of Dallas, in which a cop infamously stormed onto the scene and threw 15-year-old girl in a bikini to the concrete and pointed a gun at a teenage boy who objected.[0] But no, not that suburb either. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Texas_pool_party_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Texas_pool_party_incident
    - refurb 6y ago
      I missed that. But suburbs aren't exactly a flash point here. There are plenty of suburbs who don't only high degree holders who haven't had problems.
      - pwinnski 6y ago
        Ferguson is a suburb of St Louis. Kenosha is a suburb of either Milwaukee or Chicago, depending on who you ask. McKinney is a suburb of Dallas. Most of the footage from "Minneapolis" was actually from suburbs of Minneapolis. Current political advertising is heavily focused on using current footage from protests and warning that our suburbs are next if the other candidate is elected. Police violence isn't only a suburban problem, but it is definitely also a suburban problem.

hundchenkatze 6y ago

I think the "defund the police" movement has a very unfortunate name. Many (hopefully most) people don't want to pull _all_ funding from the police. They want to appropriately redistribute funds. That means stopping spend on surplus military weapons and tanks, and instead put more money towards the proper training you mentioned.

throwawaysea 6y ago
This is not based in reality. How much money do you think police are spending on “surplus military weapons”? It is minimal and most of the purchase of surplus military items are mundane. They aren’t acquiring carriers and missiles. You mentioned tanks - are you literally claiming that local police departments are purchasing M1 Abrams battle tanks? Because that’s not happening. Keep in mind the total transfer of military surplus equipment to police departments is just $5.1B over the entire lifetime of the program, since 1997 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Support_Office https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Support_Offi...). The scale of this program has been completely blown out of proportion by activists. Here in Seattle, protesters/rioters have been calling for a 50% defunding despite 96% of police budget being spent on people expenses, and not “military weapons” like Twitter claims. See https://sccinsight.com/2020/06/30/understanding-the-seattle-police-department-budget/ https://sccinsight.com/2020/06/30/understanding-the-seattle-...
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  Didn’t you guys just lose the first black female police chief because of that screaming mob too? The irony...
  - shirakawasuna 6y ago
    There's no irony there and it was not a "screaming mob". I'm concerned about your sources of information. Chief Best stepped down after constantly lying about the police actions and the protesters for months. Best was hired against the recommendations of the federal consent decree that SPD is under because of repeated excessive force and racial profiling issues, hand-picked by the mayor. The reasons given for her stepping down are relatively boring and unlikely to be the real reason, which probably involves political calculus and the mayor.

scarface74 6y ago

It’s well known that ex military who become police are much less likely to be involved in a shooting and they are much better at de-escalating. We train the military much better than the police.

hellotomyrars 6y ago
The military connection is very interesting. You're right, of course. Military training is very rigorous and, more importantly, consistent. Police training is a wild hodgepodge and also sometimes basically non-existent. The other thing I have seen talked about in this context, and which I agree with, is that in the military you are trained as part of a larger unit and loyal to an even larger cause/organization. Police, on the other hand, are given a partner who they might serve with primarily for years almost-exclusivity. They become loyal to a very small group of people over their career and don't have the same esprit de corps as the military. To some degree I think they both attract dangerous/violent people who are joining for the wrong reasons. (The desire to hold power over others or just flat-out hurt people). But the Military is more likely to drum these people out, especially before the worst happens, where police don't.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Have you noticed how the military - even up to the generals - are generally always publicly respectful to the civilian command whether or not they agree with them? Can you say the same about police?
jki275 6y ago
As a 23 year veteran, I can tell you that statement is missing a ton of context, and almost certainly is very inaccurate. Most people in the military rarely if ever touch a firearm for their entire time in the military after they qualify with it in bootcamp - some don't even do that. De-escalation training? That's diametrically opposite of how an infantryman is trained, and totally irrelevant to anyone outside those combat arms fields. Most people in the military would never receive a single moment of training relevant to police work in their entire time in the military. What you might be seeing is that most veterans tend to be a bit older, a bit more mature, and perhaps tend to view a badge less as a power trip and more of a responsibility due to the experiences they've had. I can't say that for sure, but it makes a bit more sense than saying military are better trained than police, when the vast majority of military members get absolutely no relevant training in anything related to police work.

GaryNumanVevo 6y ago

Defunding the police addresses the overspending. Despite millions of dollars for training, outcomes in police interactions haven't gotten better. Purchasing military surplus is another area they've spent increased budgets on as well.

bassman9000 6y ago
outcomes in police interactions haven't gotten better. By which metric?
- ineedasername 6y ago
  Well, the number of people killed by officers, and the number of officers killed in the line of duty are both metrics that have remained fairly steady. Overall violent crime rate looks pretty steady as well over the past decade, though it's much decreased from the 2000-2010 rates. It's not a single-metric question though. Probably not just a 10-20 metric question either.
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
Most major US cities are underspending, not overspending. Do you know what % is spent on military surplus? (Hint: barely anything)
athms 6y ago
>Purchasing military surplus is another area they've spent increased budgets on as well. Police only pay for shipping. If those costs are swelling their expenses, they have a tiny budget. The 1988 National Defense Authorization Act created a temporary program within the DoD to funnel surplus equipment to state law enforcement agencies involved in anti-drug activities at no cost other than shipping. The 1997 National Defense Authorization Act added anti-terrorism activities and made the program permanent.

zoolily 6y ago

I would love to see proper training, but it seems that much of the training is on pseudoscientific nonsense. See https://theintercept.com/2020/08/12/blueleaks-law-enforcement-police-lie-detection/ https://theintercept.com/2020/08/12/blueleaks-law-enforcemen... for some examples.

dv_dt 6y ago

You should look at how much of the budget the police dept takes of an average town. In my med-small town they're 50% of the city budget. Police depts are shockingly well funded compared to the problems they actually end up solving.

Bostonian 6y ago
In your town more money is spent on the police than the public schools? Certainly not in mine.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  In much of USA the school district is a separate entity from the city. Often this is because many students live outside city limits.
- dv_dt 6y ago
  My town may have something atypicial about its finances at 50%, if you look at the budget of San Jose it seems about $400m for city services and $200m for police and fire. I didn't pick it apart further between police/fire, but IIRC fire tends to have much smaller budgets than police depts. But I would say that's still shockingly large vs the budget for other city services.. (that's setting aside some large chunks for airports etc..., I was also a bit surprised SJ had a $4B budget and how much was for airport services). Edit: I guess looking at Oakland/Chicago, it's 50% or close to it too though. https://www.gq.com/story/cops-cost-billions https://www.gq.com/story/cops-cost-billions "Oakland PD receives nearly half of the city's discretionary spending( $264 million out of $592 million), dwarfing every other expenditure, including human services, parks and recreation, and transportation combined. A whopping 39 percent of Chicago's 2017 budget went to police, and still the department got even more money, peaking in 2020 with a 7 percent increase to nearly $1.8 billion. "

mindslight 6y ago

While training is important, the deeper problem is that of incentives. Our usual catchall way of discouraging uncivilized behavior is with the justice system - follow these laws or else. But when a perp can put on a uniform, commit violent crimes with impunity, and then not even be charged, the justice system has been coopted into something else. (Or coming at it from the other direction, when a person can be destroyed by that "justice system" for simply smoking a plant. The war on drug users is also a large part of how the rule of law has been undermined)