4 ms·

> Because it's actively being sabotaged. I know this is the political line of the day, but the reality is USPS is, has been, and will be insanely inefficient f

by Alupis 6y ago

> Because it's actively being sabotaged. I know this is the political line of the day, but the reality is USPS is, has been, and will be insanely inefficient for decades. Decades. That spans multiple presidents from both parties. Decades. The very fact that USPS receives funding by Tax Payers, but also still charges the same tax payers money to use services, and still manages to lose billions of dollars every year is a modern marvel all in it's own right. The very fact it costs USPS more than $0.55 to deliver a letter to your mailbox (which only USPS is legally allowed to put mail into for whatever reason in 2020), is insane. Raise rates they'll say! To what end? To the point where UPS or FedEX rates start looking attractive for normal letter mail? What will happen then to the USPS? For larger packages over a few pounds, it's already insanely cheaper to ship packages via UPS or FedEx. Sometimes over half the price in difference. Neither UPS nor FedEx are subsidized by Tax Payers + Still Charge for Services. Somehow, they make a profit and deliver packages on time. The mismanagement of USPS is as criminal as it is resolute. It is not the current administration's doing - claiming so is not just intellectually dishonest, it's flatly wrong. No, the mismanagement of USPS has always been, and all signs seem to say it will always be. EDIT: It's a myth that USPS isn't tax payer funded. Pay attention to the wording they use - "Not Tax Payer Funded". That says nothing about routine bailouts[1][2][3], which are so routine they might as well be scheduled. How is a bailout not tax payer funding? Run yourself into the ground then get bailed out by tax payers again, and again, and again, and again. It would probably be more efficient to actually just give them the money up front. [1] https://justthenews.com/government/congress/congressman-says-usps-25-billion-bailout-bill-favors-democratic-party-backed https://justthenews.com/government/congress/congressman-says... [2] https://keller.house.gov/media/in-the-news/usps-has-lost-78-billion-2007-despite-receiving-billions-taxpayers-every-year https://keller.house.gov/media/in-the-news/usps-has-lost-78-... [3] https://fortune.com/2015/03/27/us-postal-service/ https://fortune.com/2015/03/27/us-postal-service/

drewrv 6y ago
USPS has to deliver mail to every address in the country, whereas UPS and FedEx do not. Comparing a public service that handles the long tail and edge cases to private companies that can axe unprofitable routes (or outsource them to USPS) isn't a fair comparison.
- Alupis 6y ago
  > USPS has to deliver mail to every address in the country, whereas UPS and FedEx do not Besides the fact that this isn't true (you'd be astonished at the number of homes that USPS won't deliver to, generally rural areas[1]), it doesn't preclude USPS from being profitable if managed properly. Let's not pretend if USPS could ditch some routes it would suddenly be profitable and not need billions of tax payer capitol injection all the time. They're a long ways from that. Saddled with thousands of unproductive employees, ones that will never be fired, yet collect a paycheck paid for by tax payers, and will enjoy a comfortable retirement with all that pension money. USPS might be a quasi-private company, but they sure don't behave like a private company. [1] I'm in the industry. For these shipments we have to send them FedEx or UPS, whichever is cheapest usually, since both will deliver when USPS will not.
- kansface 6y ago
  I wonder how much of that subsidy practically goes to spam.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    I actually tried to stop the spam mail to my house. I took a mailbox full, just 2 days of mail, 99% spam, and took it into my local post office. Plopped the mail on the counter and told the clerk I no longer wanted to receive mail from any of these advertisers. Of course the clerk couldn't help me. USPS makes too much money delivering junk right to your mailbox. What a great system we're engineered here, where our national carrier service primarily slups junk mail around the country, and won't stop because it's one of their most profitable side-hustles.
    - Scoundreller 6y ago
      Seems like they could have been more helpful: https://faq.usps.com/s/article/Refuse-unwanted-mail-and-remove-name-from-mailing-lists https://faq.usps.com/s/article/Refuse-unwanted-mail-and-remo...
    - notJim 6y ago
avani 6y ago
I know you've almost certainly heard this, but USPS does not receive any taxpayer funding: https://facts.usps.com/top-facts/ https://facts.usps.com/top-facts/
- Alupis 6y ago
  What is this $25 Billion Funding Bill for then[1]? Certainly looks like tax payer funding to me - and a whole lot of it too. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/22/politics/postal-service-house-vote-funding/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/22/politics/postal-service-house...
  - mtberatwork 6y ago
    That bill was only passed in the House as emergency aid. That doesn't mean the USPS is receiving those funds.
- Doji 6y ago
  That's right, we just loan it money it'll never pay back.
mtberatwork 6y ago
The USPS does not receive tax payer funding.
- Alupis 6y ago
  They receive taxpayer "bailouts" frequently, including this current $25 Billion bailout[1]. Bailout, Funding, Potato, Potato. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/22/politics/postal-service-house-vote-funding/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/22/politics/postal-service-house...
  - mtberatwork 6y ago
    That bill was originally part of the stimulus package. The House separated it out to provide emergency aid to the USPS. Regardless, the bill won't move out of the house.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      This is only the latest "Bailout" for USPS. They have a history of receiving bailouts every few years. Might as well be considered direct funding, since they find themselves in that situation almost like clockwork.
      - mtberatwork 6y ago
        > This is only the latest "Bailout" for USPS. They have a history of receiving bailouts every few years. What history of bailouts? This "bailout" only passed in the House. They aren't receiving those funds. > Might as well be considered direct funding No, that's not what that term means. > since they find themselves in that situation almost like clockwork. No, they don't.
        kyleee 6y ago
        Do you have a list of USPS bailouts by chance so we can check hoe frequently they occur?
dumbfoundded 6y ago
USPS is a service, not a business. Do we look at how profitable the US military is or schools? That being said, USPS used to be profitable until Congress decided that they pre-fund pensions for all new hires (1). They went from making a couple billion a year to losing $5 billion a year. Your statements have no truth in them. Republicans love to actively sabotage profitable and useful public services and then try to defund them by claiming they don't work. As a bootstrapped business owner working out of a rural and very republican community, I'm disgusted by the lies and misinformation people use to try to destroy the USPS. It's literally in our constitution. (1) https://www.thoughtco.com/postal-service-losses-by-year-3321043 https://www.thoughtco.com/postal-service-losses-by-year-3321...
- Alupis 6y ago
  > USPS is a service, not a business. Do we look at how profitable the US military is or schools? If it was purely a service and designed to be in the red, we wouldn't be having this debate here. No, it's a quasi-private business that manages itself horrendously, and requires routine capitol injection via Tax Payer Bailouts. As a service? USPS is more of a jobs service - employing thousands of unproductive employees that will coast until retirement then enjoy part of that enormous pension.
  - dumbfoundded 6y ago
    So you're just going to ignore that Congress made them unprofitable in 2006 by requiring them to do something no private business has to do? Are you going to deny they were profitable before then? You say they're horribly mismanaged and only exist to create bureaucracy. You ignore facts and reality. It seems like you've made up your mind and you won't have reality interject. I pity you and your warped mindset.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - Alupis 6y ago
      Look, either USPS is a "Public Service" and it doesn't matter how far into the red they run, or... thy're a business and it does matter, a lot. If they're a "Public Service", then let's stop these emergency bailouts every few years and just fund the darn thing properly. If they're a business, then we need to stop bailing them out and force them to work with what they have, or let people go that are not pulling their weight. After all, their private-business competition has managed to do just this. Either way, pretending this is some new emergency is disingenuous. USPS has been on fire for decades, that is a fact, paper-profits or not. It's about how they operate, at the core. The pension requirement is two-fold. First, to guarantee postal employees they will have a retirement waiting for them, regardless of who the current administration is or what the political tides bring tomorrow. That's huge. The second part is it makes hiring new people quite expensive. That discourages hiring instead of working with the people they already have (~470,000[1]!!!!). It's no secret it's hard to be fired from government jobs, and no secret USPS is the same in that regard. There's likely a massive amount of bloat within USPS that would better be cut than preserved. That alone, chopping dead weight, could help free USPS up from it's current predicament. I'm floored that we have so many people staunchly defending status quo with USPS today. A year ago, we would all be railing about how inefficient USPS is, blah blah blah. But, politics blinds everyone in turn. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Service#:~:text=The%20USPS%2C%20as%20of%202019,and%20136%2C174%20non%2Dcareer%20employees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Service#:....
jkestner 6y ago
Making "profit" the benchmark for a government service, plus saddling the service with a pension prefunding requirement that takes it from profit to loss, is a manufactured crisis.
- kyleee 6y ago
  Does "pension prefunding" mean that they have to allocate money up front for the (expected/forecasted) entirety of defined benefit pensions? Why not move to defined contribution plans?
  - Alupis 6y ago
    It makes hiring new people very expensive. I'd imagine one of the goals of such legislation was to reduce the bloat within USPS - ie. let go of unproductive employees and replace them with productive employees, or just remove dead weight completely. Instead, USPS is basically a job's program. "Nobody ever got fired from USPS", is probably not very far off from the truth.
mindslight 6y ago
> The very fact that USPS receives funding by Tax Payers, but also still charges the same tax payers money to use services, and still manages to lose billions of dollars every year is a modern marvel all in it's own right. Just like courts, building permits, transfer stations, vital records, DMVs, passports, and every other government service that charges fees (including the IRS itself!). > For larger packages over a few pounds, it's already insanely cheaper to ship packages via UPS or FedEx USPS rates are high for anything over 12 inches on a dimension. Compare the prices for shipping a small package and you will see why many small businesses depend on USPS, especially ones unable to negotiate favorable contracts with UPS/Fedex.
phonon 6y ago
First class mail typically costs (much) more in other countries. https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/08/us-postal-rates-versus-other-countries/ https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/08/us-postal-rat... https://gofranklingo.wordpress.com/tag/compare-postage-rates-in-other-countries/ https://gofranklingo.wordpress.com/tag/compare-postage-rates...
oblio 6y ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IoL8g0W9gAQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IoL8g0W9gAQ They're not being funded through taxes.
- Alupis 6y ago
  Do government bailouts not come from tax payer money?
  - oblio 6y ago
    1. How many bailouts have they received? 2. Do you think it's a bailout in a year when the US is supposed to have mass voting by mail? 3. (whataboutism) How many (especially big) US companies haven't received help in 2020?
smileysteve 6y ago
> To the point where UPS or FedEX rates start looking attractive for normal letter mail? > but the reality is USPS is, has been, and will be insanely inefficient for decades Because you mention them and efficiency, here's a reminder that FedEx had horrible guidance in September 2019 (YoY from 2018 lowered guidance) leading some analysts to speculate towards bankruptcy; had deliverability reliability issues such that Amazon cut deliveries with them. https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/09/26/is-there-hope-for-fedex-after-its-dismal-earnings.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/09/26/is-there-hope-for-... https://investorplace.com/2018/12/fedex-reported-earnings-and-there-are-serious-problems/ https://investorplace.com/2018/12/fedex-reported-earnings-an... https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardkestenbaum/2019/12/18/amazon-blocked-sellers-from-using-fedex-and-now-we-know-why/#6b873e822da1 https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardkestenbaum/2019/12/18/am... And Fedex is struggling while it's workforce is free of pension and healthcare costs for their mostly contracted workforce; which has been ruled a mis-classification of workers https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fedex-settlement-idUSKCN0Z229Q https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fedex-settlement-idUSKCN0...
samatman 6y ago
If bailouts are your standard for "taxpayer funded", then in 2020, the entire US economy is now taxpayer funded. The Constitution make operating a postal service one of the enumerated powers. If you want to change that, I suggest lobbying for an Amendment. I'm sure that will be quite popular.
nybble41 6y ago
> To the point where UPS or FedEX rates start looking attractive for normal letter mail? That can't actually happen, because if UPS or FedEx delivers first-class mail they have to pay the USPS the normal price for the delivery on top of their own costs (39 U.S.C. §601). Ergo, UPS or FedEx will always be the more expensive option for letters. The only bright point is that physical letters are becoming increasingly obsolete with most communications taking place electronically. Now if we could just do something about all the physical junk mail…

by Alupis 6y ago

drewrv 6y ago

USPS has to deliver mail to every address in the country, whereas UPS and FedEx do not. Comparing a public service that handles the long tail and edge cases to private companies that can axe unprofitable routes (or outsource them to USPS) isn't a fair comparison.

Alupis 6y ago
> USPS has to deliver mail to every address in the country, whereas UPS and FedEx do not Besides the fact that this isn't true (you'd be astonished at the number of homes that USPS won't deliver to, generally rural areas[1]), it doesn't preclude USPS from being profitable if managed properly. Let's not pretend if USPS could ditch some routes it would suddenly be profitable and not need billions of tax payer capitol injection all the time. They're a long ways from that. Saddled with thousands of unproductive employees, ones that will never be fired, yet collect a paycheck paid for by tax payers, and will enjoy a comfortable retirement with all that pension money. USPS might be a quasi-private company, but they sure don't behave like a private company. [1] I'm in the industry. For these shipments we have to send them FedEx or UPS, whichever is cheapest usually, since both will deliver when USPS will not.
kansface 6y ago
I wonder how much of that subsidy practically goes to spam.
- Alupis 6y ago
  I actually tried to stop the spam mail to my house. I took a mailbox full, just 2 days of mail, 99% spam, and took it into my local post office. Plopped the mail on the counter and told the clerk I no longer wanted to receive mail from any of these advertisers. Of course the clerk couldn't help me. USPS makes too much money delivering junk right to your mailbox. What a great system we're engineered here, where our national carrier service primarily slups junk mail around the country, and won't stop because it's one of their most profitable side-hustles.
  - Scoundreller 6y ago
    Seems like they could have been more helpful: https://faq.usps.com/s/article/Refuse-unwanted-mail-and-remove-name-from-mailing-lists https://faq.usps.com/s/article/Refuse-unwanted-mail-and-remo...
  - notJim 6y ago

avani 6y ago

I know you've almost certainly heard this, but USPS does not receive any taxpayer funding: https://facts.usps.com/top-facts/ https://facts.usps.com/top-facts/

Alupis 6y ago
What is this $25 Billion Funding Bill for then[1]? Certainly looks like tax payer funding to me - and a whole lot of it too. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/22/politics/postal-service-house-vote-funding/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/22/politics/postal-service-house...
- mtberatwork 6y ago
  That bill was only passed in the House as emergency aid. That doesn't mean the USPS is receiving those funds.
Doji 6y ago
That's right, we just loan it money it'll never pay back.

mtberatwork 6y ago

The USPS does not receive tax payer funding.

Alupis 6y ago
They receive taxpayer "bailouts" frequently, including this current $25 Billion bailout[1]. Bailout, Funding, Potato, Potato. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/22/politics/postal-service-house-vote-funding/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/22/politics/postal-service-house...
- mtberatwork 6y ago
  That bill was originally part of the stimulus package. The House separated it out to provide emergency aid to the USPS. Regardless, the bill won't move out of the house.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    This is only the latest "Bailout" for USPS. They have a history of receiving bailouts every few years. Might as well be considered direct funding, since they find themselves in that situation almost like clockwork.
    - mtberatwork 6y ago
      > This is only the latest "Bailout" for USPS. They have a history of receiving bailouts every few years. What history of bailouts? This "bailout" only passed in the House. They aren't receiving those funds. > Might as well be considered direct funding No, that's not what that term means. > since they find themselves in that situation almost like clockwork. No, they don't.
      - kyleee 6y ago
        Do you have a list of USPS bailouts by chance so we can check hoe frequently they occur?

dumbfoundded 6y ago

USPS is a service, not a business. Do we look at how profitable the US military is or schools? That being said, USPS used to be profitable until Congress decided that they pre-fund pensions for all new hires (1). They went from making a couple billion a year to losing $5 billion a year. Your statements have no truth in them. Republicans love to actively sabotage profitable and useful public services and then try to defund them by claiming they don't work. As a bootstrapped business owner working out of a rural and very republican community, I'm disgusted by the lies and misinformation people use to try to destroy the USPS. It's literally in our constitution. (1) https://www.thoughtco.com/postal-service-losses-by-year-3321043 https://www.thoughtco.com/postal-service-losses-by-year-3321...

Alupis 6y ago
> USPS is a service, not a business. Do we look at how profitable the US military is or schools? If it was purely a service and designed to be in the red, we wouldn't be having this debate here. No, it's a quasi-private business that manages itself horrendously, and requires routine capitol injection via Tax Payer Bailouts. As a service? USPS is more of a jobs service - employing thousands of unproductive employees that will coast until retirement then enjoy part of that enormous pension.
- dumbfoundded 6y ago
  So you're just going to ignore that Congress made them unprofitable in 2006 by requiring them to do something no private business has to do? Are you going to deny they were profitable before then? You say they're horribly mismanaged and only exist to create bureaucracy. You ignore facts and reality. It seems like you've made up your mind and you won't have reality interject. I pity you and your warped mindset.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Alupis 6y ago
    Look, either USPS is a "Public Service" and it doesn't matter how far into the red they run, or... thy're a business and it does matter, a lot. If they're a "Public Service", then let's stop these emergency bailouts every few years and just fund the darn thing properly. If they're a business, then we need to stop bailing them out and force them to work with what they have, or let people go that are not pulling their weight. After all, their private-business competition has managed to do just this. Either way, pretending this is some new emergency is disingenuous. USPS has been on fire for decades, that is a fact, paper-profits or not. It's about how they operate, at the core. The pension requirement is two-fold. First, to guarantee postal employees they will have a retirement waiting for them, regardless of who the current administration is or what the political tides bring tomorrow. That's huge. The second part is it makes hiring new people quite expensive. That discourages hiring instead of working with the people they already have (~470,000[1]!!!!). It's no secret it's hard to be fired from government jobs, and no secret USPS is the same in that regard. There's likely a massive amount of bloat within USPS that would better be cut than preserved. That alone, chopping dead weight, could help free USPS up from it's current predicament. I'm floored that we have so many people staunchly defending status quo with USPS today. A year ago, we would all be railing about how inefficient USPS is, blah blah blah. But, politics blinds everyone in turn. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Service#:~:text=The%20USPS%2C%20as%20of%202019,and%20136%2C174%20non%2Dcareer%20employees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Service#:....

jkestner 6y ago

Making "profit" the benchmark for a government service, plus saddling the service with a pension prefunding requirement that takes it from profit to loss, is a manufactured crisis.

kyleee 6y ago
Does "pension prefunding" mean that they have to allocate money up front for the (expected/forecasted) entirety of defined benefit pensions? Why not move to defined contribution plans?
- Alupis 6y ago
  It makes hiring new people very expensive. I'd imagine one of the goals of such legislation was to reduce the bloat within USPS - ie. let go of unproductive employees and replace them with productive employees, or just remove dead weight completely. Instead, USPS is basically a job's program. "Nobody ever got fired from USPS", is probably not very far off from the truth.

mindslight 6y ago

> The very fact that USPS receives funding by Tax Payers, but also still charges the same tax payers money to use services, and still manages to lose billions of dollars every year is a modern marvel all in it's own right. Just like courts, building permits, transfer stations, vital records, DMVs, passports, and every other government service that charges fees (including the IRS itself!). > For larger packages over a few pounds, it's already insanely cheaper to ship packages via UPS or FedEx USPS rates are high for anything over 12 inches on a dimension. Compare the prices for shipping a small package and you will see why many small businesses depend on USPS, especially ones unable to negotiate favorable contracts with UPS/Fedex.

phonon 6y ago

First class mail typically costs (much) more in other countries. https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/08/us-postal-rates-versus-other-countries/ https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/08/us-postal-rat... https://gofranklingo.wordpress.com/tag/compare-postage-rates-in-other-countries/ https://gofranklingo.wordpress.com/tag/compare-postage-rates...

oblio 6y ago

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IoL8g0W9gAQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IoL8g0W9gAQ They're not being funded through taxes.

Alupis 6y ago
Do government bailouts not come from tax payer money?
- oblio 6y ago
  1. How many bailouts have they received? 2. Do you think it's a bailout in a year when the US is supposed to have mass voting by mail? 3. (whataboutism) How many (especially big) US companies haven't received help in 2020?

smileysteve 6y ago

> To the point where UPS or FedEX rates start looking attractive for normal letter mail? > but the reality is USPS is, has been, and will be insanely inefficient for decades Because you mention them and efficiency, here's a reminder that FedEx had horrible guidance in September 2019 (YoY from 2018 lowered guidance) leading some analysts to speculate towards bankruptcy; had deliverability reliability issues such that Amazon cut deliveries with them. https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/09/26/is-there-hope-for-fedex-after-its-dismal-earnings.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/09/26/is-there-hope-for-... https://investorplace.com/2018/12/fedex-reported-earnings-and-there-are-serious-problems/ https://investorplace.com/2018/12/fedex-reported-earnings-an... https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardkestenbaum/2019/12/18/amazon-blocked-sellers-from-using-fedex-and-now-we-know-why/#6b873e822da1 https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardkestenbaum/2019/12/18/am... And Fedex is struggling while it's workforce is free of pension and healthcare costs for their mostly contracted workforce; which has been ruled a mis-classification of workers https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fedex-settlement-idUSKCN0Z229Q https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fedex-settlement-idUSKCN0...

samatman 6y ago

If bailouts are your standard for "taxpayer funded", then in 2020, the entire US economy is now taxpayer funded. The Constitution make operating a postal service one of the enumerated powers. If you want to change that, I suggest lobbying for an Amendment. I'm sure that will be quite popular.

nybble41 6y ago

> To the point where UPS or FedEX rates start looking attractive for normal letter mail? That can't actually happen, because if UPS or FedEx delivers first-class mail they have to pay the USPS the normal price for the delivery on top of their own costs (39 U.S.C. §601). Ergo, UPS or FedEx will always be the more expensive option for letters. The only bright point is that physical letters are becoming increasingly obsolete with most communications taking place electronically. Now if we could just do something about all the physical junk mail…