7 ms·

Yeah, why wouldn't an f22 for example just turn and run from these drones at nearly mach 2.

dmoy 6y ago
It would do exactly that
viraptor 6y ago
We're already very much in a theoretical territory, but: Given small size, how do you detect a swarm? Hovering cubes would be ignorable noise to radars. At f22 flight speeds, you can't exactly manoeuver around them. If you knew where the plane is headed, the question could become: can you create a wide enough curtain ahead of time that can home in on the incoming plane? Chasing is not needed that way.
- baddox 6y ago
  If you knew exactly where the plane is headed then, yeah, the drones might work.
  - sliken 6y ago
    Sure, and if you know exactly where a plane is headed than a anti-air missle, anti-air gun, or plane with radically less speed/agility would be fine as well. So that's a big if.
- nradov 6y ago
  There's no way to put up that many drones at 40K feet. It's just impossible regardless of cost per unit. The sky is a big place.
- dodobirdlord 6y ago
  The sky is too big, the distances are too large, and a fighter jet is moving too fast. What are these drones supposed to do, hope the jet flies close enough that the drone can act as a proximity mine? Plus, the kind of small drone you’re describing can’t operate at the altitude of a fighter jet. As the air thins out you need a lot of speed to keep sufficient oxygen flowing into the jets, and non-jet aircraft can’t operate. So unless the drones are going to be blimps, a drone that can climb to fighter jet altitude is going to be pretty big and look a lot like a fighter jet.
- onepointsixC 6y ago
  Considering that a F-22's RCS is roughly the size of a marble, and it is expected to fight similarly stealthy aircraft I'd imagine that you're very much under estimating the ability of a modern jet to detect your swarm of tiny cubes. Next, how exactly do your cubes stay up in the air for long periods of time? You'd need a great deal of energy in order to fly at the altitudes which an F-22 would be flying at. And presumably to loiter up there for long periods of time. Suddenly your cheap tiny swarm is expensive, large, and unweildly.
- snowwrestler 6y ago
  Any large set of hovering things grouped tightly enough to ensure damage to a passing F-22 would definitely show up on radar. Flocks of birds show up; a flock of drones would too.
u10 6y ago
Scrubbing a mission can be viewed as just as valuable. Even a 'mission kill' would far exceed the value of the drone.
wongarsu 6y ago
If the F22 turns around and aborts mission that's mission accomplished for the drone operator. The question is how many drones you need to deny figher aircraft from any given area, and how that cost compares to operating your own airforce
- baybal2 6y ago
  It is 1 if you just need to destroy its airfield. Airwar is not about who shoots more planes, it's about who will blow up enemy's airbases first.
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    If planes are conceptually vulnerable to a fog of drones, then so are missiles. Anyway the fog drones are unlikely to require full-fledged airfields.
  - dmix 6y ago
    Laser systems will handle that eventually. Bases will be hardened. Animated example of a convoy getting hit by lasers: https://youtu.be/-miBH10bdCs https://youtu.be/-miBH10bdCs Live example: https://youtu.be/XH6NIazR5pA https://youtu.be/XH6NIazR5pA
    - hcurtiss 6y ago
      It sure seems like those would take a boatload of energy. I wonder how that's stored.
      - blaser-waffle 6y ago
        Indeed. Right now laser systems are feasible as weapons on ships... who have their own gigantic diesel engines (and/or nuclear reactors). Energy dissipation of a laser in atmo is going to require crazy amounts of energy to go even a moderate distance, so either those lasers are being fired from something really close to the airfield, or else you've got some S.H.I.E.L.D style flying aircraft carrier thing.
nradov 6y ago
The F-22 could also just climb above the drones' operating ceiling. Small, cheap drones will not have the thrust or fuel fraction to cruise up there, let alone maneuver without stalling.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  An F22 can just lob tactical nukes, or high powered conventional explosives, and drop the drones like flies.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    A fully loaded F-22 in air-to-air role has eight missiles. No one's using tactical nukes against a drone swarm.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
      I'm not sayinh they are, I'm just saying they could. If a drone swarm proves lethal to a multi million dollar aircraft of ship, tactical nuke could be a suitable response. Unlikely, sure, I'm just saying though....
    - waste_monk 6y ago
      Why not? The Genie anti-air nuclear rocket [1] was designed to take out soviet bombers, in a time when guided missiles were too immature to provide the required precision. A more modern guided nuclear anti-air missile (with features such as PAL security and tritium boosted fission for a higher / dialable yield) would probably work quite nicely for reducing swarm density. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIR-2_Genie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIR-2_Genie
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        There's a reason we've pulled back from the Cold War craziness of nuclear bazookas and chicken powered nuclear landmines. The casual tactical use of nuclear weapons is seen as geopolitically extremely dangerous.
catmistake 6y ago
Why would an F22 need to do that if the drones can't know that it is even there? Why would an f22 need to get closer than 25 miles to engage these drones? Why would an F22 ever get in a dogfight?

dmoy 6y ago

It would do exactly that

We're already very much in a theoretical territory, but: Given small size, how do you detect a swarm? Hovering cubes would be ignorable noise to radars. At f22 flight speeds, you can't exactly manoeuver around them. If you knew where the plane is headed, the question could become: can you create a wide enough curtain ahead of time that can home in on the incoming plane? Chasing is not needed that way.

baddox 6y ago
If you knew exactly where the plane is headed then, yeah, the drones might work.
- sliken 6y ago
  Sure, and if you know exactly where a plane is headed than a anti-air missle, anti-air gun, or plane with radically less speed/agility would be fine as well. So that's a big if.
nradov 6y ago
There's no way to put up that many drones at 40K feet. It's just impossible regardless of cost per unit. The sky is a big place.
dodobirdlord 6y ago
The sky is too big, the distances are too large, and a fighter jet is moving too fast. What are these drones supposed to do, hope the jet flies close enough that the drone can act as a proximity mine? Plus, the kind of small drone you’re describing can’t operate at the altitude of a fighter jet. As the air thins out you need a lot of speed to keep sufficient oxygen flowing into the jets, and non-jet aircraft can’t operate. So unless the drones are going to be blimps, a drone that can climb to fighter jet altitude is going to be pretty big and look a lot like a fighter jet.
onepointsixC 6y ago
Considering that a F-22's RCS is roughly the size of a marble, and it is expected to fight similarly stealthy aircraft I'd imagine that you're very much under estimating the ability of a modern jet to detect your swarm of tiny cubes. Next, how exactly do your cubes stay up in the air for long periods of time? You'd need a great deal of energy in order to fly at the altitudes which an F-22 would be flying at. And presumably to loiter up there for long periods of time. Suddenly your cheap tiny swarm is expensive, large, and unweildly.
snowwrestler 6y ago
Any large set of hovering things grouped tightly enough to ensure damage to a passing F-22 would definitely show up on radar. Flocks of birds show up; a flock of drones would too.

u10 6y ago

Scrubbing a mission can be viewed as just as valuable. Even a 'mission kill' would far exceed the value of the drone.

wongarsu 6y ago

If the F22 turns around and aborts mission that's mission accomplished for the drone operator. The question is how many drones you need to deny figher aircraft from any given area, and how that cost compares to operating your own airforce

baybal2 6y ago
It is 1 if you just need to destroy its airfield. Airwar is not about who shoots more planes, it's about who will blow up enemy's airbases first.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  If planes are conceptually vulnerable to a fog of drones, then so are missiles. Anyway the fog drones are unlikely to require full-fledged airfields.
- dmix 6y ago
  Laser systems will handle that eventually. Bases will be hardened. Animated example of a convoy getting hit by lasers: https://youtu.be/-miBH10bdCs https://youtu.be/-miBH10bdCs Live example: https://youtu.be/XH6NIazR5pA https://youtu.be/XH6NIazR5pA
  - hcurtiss 6y ago
    It sure seems like those would take a boatload of energy. I wonder how that's stored.
    - blaser-waffle 6y ago
      Indeed. Right now laser systems are feasible as weapons on ships... who have their own gigantic diesel engines (and/or nuclear reactors). Energy dissipation of a laser in atmo is going to require crazy amounts of energy to go even a moderate distance, so either those lasers are being fired from something really close to the airfield, or else you've got some S.H.I.E.L.D style flying aircraft carrier thing.

nradov 6y ago

The F-22 could also just climb above the drones' operating ceiling. Small, cheap drones will not have the thrust or fuel fraction to cruise up there, let alone maneuver without stalling.

TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
An F22 can just lob tactical nukes, or high powered conventional explosives, and drop the drones like flies.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  A fully loaded F-22 in air-to-air role has eight missiles. No one's using tactical nukes against a drone swarm.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
    I'm not sayinh they are, I'm just saying they could. If a drone swarm proves lethal to a multi million dollar aircraft of ship, tactical nuke could be a suitable response. Unlikely, sure, I'm just saying though....
  - waste_monk 6y ago
    Why not? The Genie anti-air nuclear rocket [1] was designed to take out soviet bombers, in a time when guided missiles were too immature to provide the required precision. A more modern guided nuclear anti-air missile (with features such as PAL security and tritium boosted fission for a higher / dialable yield) would probably work quite nicely for reducing swarm density. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIR-2_Genie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIR-2_Genie
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      There's a reason we've pulled back from the Cold War craziness of nuclear bazookas and chicken powered nuclear landmines. The casual tactical use of nuclear weapons is seen as geopolitically extremely dangerous.

catmistake 6y ago

Why would an F22 need to do that if the drones can't know that it is even there? Why would an f22 need to get closer than 25 miles to engage these drones? Why would an F22 ever get in a dogfight?