7 ms·

Emotional resilience and burnout in leadership

207 points by jonnymiller 6y ago

LeonW 6y ago
I wish every leader gets access to these frameworks and takeaways. The #1 issue I face with every single client I've worked with over the years as an executive coach is exactly what they are pointing out here: that dealing with our emotions and inner worlds is the biggest challenge of all. Learning to deal with that has the highest ROI on both success and fulfillment/happiness compared to any other activity for a leader imo.
- jonnymiller 6y ago
  Thanks Leo, we have you to thank for introducing us to the concept of 'emotional debt'. I totally agree that for the majority of us, navigating the inner-world + increasing self-awareness has an absurdly high ROI on success/fulfillment. What I also find fascinating is how running a company or leading a team appear to be an incredibly efficient vehicle for surfacing one's own sh*t—and once this new perspective is adopted—it becomes more potent than any self-help program out there for one's own personal growth.
- alexanderdou 6y ago
  I'm very early in my career, but I've noticed that being able to sense, reflect on, and grapple with one's emotions to be so lacking at work. It's also been one of the biggest invisible skills in my own career: it helps me navigate disagreements with colleagues by "getting us on the same side of the problem, rather than on opposite sides"; it helps me avoid self-sabotage by creating narratives in my head and falling into the cognitive distortions of mind reading and fortune telling that I know I'm particularly prone to; it helps me interface with customers and graciously accept feedback, even if it's not delivered in the kindest way But nobody teaches it. It was never in a training. I never learned it in school. It's almost like nobody knows it exists! Anyway, btw, thanks for your work. I recently signed up for your newsletter and it's been really wonderful. I really enjoy the kindness you bring to your writing.
haswell 6y ago
As someone who has just started a 4 week break spurred on by a burnout-induced breakdown at work, this is very timely. I do wonder if it’s reasonable to think that 4 weeks is enough. I’ve struggled with mental health issues for most of my life due to complex developmental trauma during childhood, and in 2020, I’ve found that it’s very difficult to tell the difference between work burnout, residual issues due to my trauma history, impact of world events, etc. One thing I do know for sure: research like this is so encouraging. Normalizing the conversation about mental health is so important.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  Hey, I've gone through a very similar situation recently, and my history is similar to what you describe here, as well. My email is in my profile, and I'd love to chat with you about it -- just put something in the subject to identify that you're haswell@HN.
  - haswell 6y ago
    Thank you for the reply and offer to chat! I'm also very interested in chatting about this and I sent an email.
- malux85 6y ago
  I have had burnout in the past, and I’m sorry to say 4 weeks is likely not enough. For me it was about 1 year to recover. Sure I could have returned to work after a month or two, because I would no longer have been “exhausted” physically, but going straight back into it would have burnt off that top layer of rest, and still revealed the ruined core within, to truly heal it took a year, then my excitement for programming came back, the excitement about not being able to sleep because there’s so much to enjoy, and the pure joy of creation I hate that it took a year to come back, being hyper industrious this long period killed me. But I am grateful that it came back. I appreciate not everyone has the financial ability to take a year off. I didn’t either, but I was lucky that I could adapt a simple, frugal existence to survive. I support UBI or whatever form of support anyone can give people who burnout because it’s real and it’s painful. I wish you all the best in your recovery, and wrote this to tell you there is light at the end of the tunnel
lemonlizzie 6y ago
good read!
davesque 6y ago
While I see that this research is aimed at leadership positions and this must surely be a problem, I feel obligated to point out that the issue of burnout could be an even worse problem in non-leadership positions. It seems that a lot of the suggested solutions (take time off, be more honest about your emotions, etc.) are necessarily things that are difficult to do for people who are not in management positions. Requesting long blocks of time off or being forthcoming about your emotions are easily things that can be used against you in employee reviews and other similar situations. In cases of severe burnout, the situation is more dire since people earning a lower salary might simply not be able to step back from work to take a year off, for example (something that was suggested by another poster here).
- Aqua 6y ago
  While I understand the intention to highlight the other side of the problem, all these issues are significantly more severe for people in leadership positions. I can't imagine taking more than 2 weeks off from work. These solutions aren't really solutions unless the person in question decides to quit their job. There is no snowballs chance in hell that a company will tolerate absence of their management staff that is longer than 4 weeks. A replacement or substituion would be required fairly soon. Being open about one's emotion in a leadership position is a ridiculous advice, it's obvious that the authors have no idea what they're recommending.
  - alxlaz 6y ago
    > There is no snowballs chance in hell that a company will tolerate absence of their management staff that is longer than 4 weeks. I've worked in places where, at any given time, at least one something-something manager was on a one-year sabbatical. One of them literally requested it -- and got it -- in order to spend more time with their daughter, who was going to college the following year, since that was their last chance to spend quality time with her for a few years. Lots of people in a non-management positions have trouble attending their kids' graduation ceremonies if they're out of state -- getting a whole year off to see them off to college is pretty much science fiction. Yes, they generally didn't leave smack in the middle of a project, but there's a lot of no man's land in-between projects. I don't understand how any of this is surprising. Justifiably or not, benefits and perks are clustered around leadership positions, that's literally one of the reasons why people are seeking them. Plus, in many large companies, it can easily take 6-12 months to recruit someone for a leadership position. Granting three-month vacations to the people you already have is a really good idea.
lighttower 6y ago
There are 13 responses from Canada, but 89 from Toronto. Did the author intend to write 9 ?
- jonnymiller 6y ago
  The author did indeed (fixed) thanks for catching that (it slipped by us & our proof-reader)
KennyHanson 6y ago
This is really insightful, thanks for sharing. I've had my own challenges with burnout. It's why I ended up leaving the corporate world. I've been working on a startup for about a year and while I feel a lot better, I have noticed that I'm not taking any time off. I fortunately have a good group of coaches & mentors around me now that are looking out for me, which has been life saving. I will definitely dive deeper into the report and use some of these tools to build resilience for myself and my team.
Whitespace 6y ago
Here's a handy link to the PDF, which is easier on the eyes than google docs: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KaPv-yVxjLb8b4WlF0nsAA5b6ftAsYw3/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KaPv-yVxjLb8b4WlF0nsAA5b6ft... This was a phenomenal read and led me to ask my own question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24265697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24265697
- jonnymiller 6y ago
  Appreciate that Tom, and yes the PDF is a more readable summary for those who don't have time to read all the way through the 60+ page Gdoc ;) And a support group / Slack channel for Software Engineers sounds like a superb idea.
bistro17 6y ago
cold showers - recommend Wimhoff
mlthoughts2018 6y ago
Despite the praise, I don’t see much of value. This is taxonomic in nature, giving you some loose categories to decompose sources of stress and emotional debt, but tons of research has been done in these areas, and this survey is a bit contrived with not very much data in the scheme of things. None of that is a big deal really, but what bugs me is nothing in the document offers concrete strategy or tactics to resolve emotional debt or burnout. Advice like “be self-aware” and “go for a walk” and “get enough sleep” is terrible because everyone is already trying all that and burnout hits you specifically when circumstances prevent you from adequately “just” doing them. It’s empty non-advice, very similar to saying “eat right & exercise” to a depressed person. It reminds me a bit of this discussion of severe life events as a major explainer of most depression, https://grasshoppermouse.github.io/2018/12/16/seven-reasons-why-major-depression-is-probably-not-a-brain-disorder/ https://grasshoppermouse.github.io/2018/12/16/seven-reasons-... It’s the same with burnout. You can torture out “shadow” reasons all you want, but it’s really deflecting from the big obvious fact that un-live-with-able circumstances are un-live-with-able and you need to actually fix and remove traumatic circumstances. You should not talk about or endorse “being resilient” to them, because it’s just victim blaming “you need to take care of yourself” dressed up in pseudotheory. Honestly I see more harm than good in analysis like this. Especially in terms of letting corporations and HR departments deflect and ignore fixing toxic work environments rampant with major burnout stressors, by supplying braindead platitudes like “go for a walk” or “be self-aware” and even worse saying, “look our leaders are doing it, so they’re not asking you to do something they themselves aren’t doing.”
- jonnymiller 6y ago
  Hi, appreciate the feedback (I'm Jonny, one of the co-authors), writing this we were conscious of framing this report not as a finished artefact, but as the beginning of a multi-year resilience research study and we fully acknowledge that it raises more questions than it provides answers. However, we also did make an effort to outline some concrete strategies for relieving emotional debt in section 7 and also outlined in the [wiki](http://resilient.wiki/ http://resilient.wiki/), which include daily/weekly/monthly/annual activities (although by no means an exhaustive list and invite readers to contribute additional suggestions). > re: Especially in terms of letting corporations and HR departments deflect and ignore fixing toxic work environments rampant with major burnout stressors This may be well the case in some organisations and part of our intention with the 'Shadow Stressors' framework was to shed light on those sources of stress in the 'ambient/external quadrant' which would likely fall under the responsibility of the organisation's leadership to address.
lostdog 6y ago
This is a good discussion of burnout overall, but it's missing a key part: Sometimes you're in a terrible environment and need to leave. The company you work for could be terrible, and no amount of emotional calisthenics will prepare you for trying to breathe on the surface of the moon.
zloof 6y ago
Really relate to this. I shut down my startup in April. On paper, we ran out of money. Behind the scenes, I finally paid the toll/ burnt out after 1-2 years of constant unexpected, unpredictable shocks. As a solo founder with investors, there was no escape, no one to run things while I took time off, and no way to leave without ending the company. At points, if my phone buzzed with a text message, I would go into a panic attack, expecting another problem. I’m now reading a book on the impact of trauma on psychology and while my experience was nothing compared to people who went to war, etc - I see a lot of similarities. Eg there are external triggers that shock your body without your control. One of the frustrating parts was that I knew it was happening as it was happening. I had the language to identify I was burnt out, had a coach, a therapist, tried to leverage a support network, etc. I do wish there were more solutions for this. At a minimum, it’s good that this issue is getting talked about more and more. An important requirement to take a sabbatical as in the example in the paper is having buy-in from board members, investors, or team mates, so getting more people on board with mental health is key. Question - curious if anyone has seen any books on burnout recovery. Thus far, 4 months in, it’s quite a long process.
- alm1 6y ago
  it's very individual and you may not find a "recovery template". Personally, I find that best remedies are 1) attaching yourself to a bigger goal, where even "at least I tried" and "at least I've advanced X area by a few steps" are fulfilling narratives. 2) finding something no matter how small, where you excel. Hobbies are great. Maybe your startup is a mess, but your bird dog yoga pose is pure perfection. (1) helps deal with the shocks of failures and (2) helps refill your confidence tank to try at the problem one more time.
- mnaei 6y ago
  > I’m now reading a book on the impact of trauma on psychology It would be wonderful if you are able to share the name of the book. I am interested in giving it a read.
known 6y ago
Protect yourself from Machiavellianism (willingness to manipulate and deceive others), Narcissism (egotism and self-obsession), Psychopathy (lack of remorse and empathy), Sadism (pleasure in suffering of others)
totetsu 6y ago
On a vaguely related note, the 'How I built this' podcast has recently been running a 'How I built resilience' series, focusing on how founders and entrepreneurs are navigating turbulent times. https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this
- jonnymiller 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing this, I'll have a listen!
curlyQueue 6y ago
Just my tidbit: I am 8 months into my journey after severe burnout (decided to take n amount of time off till I felt “right” last December). I am not a founder, but have worked in high caliber roles for the last few years (I am still fairly early in my career). My last job was at a YC company. I started out thinking it’d be 2 months. Then 4. Then it turned into 6. I panicked a lot in the beginning, I am used to overworking or nothing. It just took time, and things started to fall into place mentally (and even physically). Now I’ve accepted that at a year, I believe I’ll be ready. I’m happy to report I feel motivation creeping in - and my creative wheels have been turning. It’s really about where to channel things next. It is the most refreshing and rewarding feeling in the world, to see light at the end of the technical-block tunnel. If I’m completely honest, there are still days when I dread the thought of returning to the screen, even when I don’t want to - but those days are less and less. I’m extremely fortunate to have been able to do this. Burnouts are like bad breakups - our nerves are likes wounds, and it just takes time to heal them after putting them on overdrive for extended periods of time. The emotional toll is taxing, a high and illogical price to pay when you consider resting like we are designed to do. Just my two cents, good luck!

207 points by jonnymiller 6y ago

I wish every leader gets access to these frameworks and takeaways. The #1 issue I face with every single client I've worked with over the years as an executive coach is exactly what they are pointing out here: that dealing with our emotions and inner worlds is the biggest challenge of all. Learning to deal with that has the highest ROI on both success and fulfillment/happiness compared to any other activity for a leader imo.

jonnymiller 6y ago
Thanks Leo, we have you to thank for introducing us to the concept of 'emotional debt'. I totally agree that for the majority of us, navigating the inner-world + increasing self-awareness has an absurdly high ROI on success/fulfillment. What I also find fascinating is how running a company or leading a team appear to be an incredibly efficient vehicle for surfacing one's own sh*t—and once this new perspective is adopted—it becomes more potent than any self-help program out there for one's own personal growth.
alexanderdou 6y ago
I'm very early in my career, but I've noticed that being able to sense, reflect on, and grapple with one's emotions to be so lacking at work. It's also been one of the biggest invisible skills in my own career: it helps me navigate disagreements with colleagues by "getting us on the same side of the problem, rather than on opposite sides"; it helps me avoid self-sabotage by creating narratives in my head and falling into the cognitive distortions of mind reading and fortune telling that I know I'm particularly prone to; it helps me interface with customers and graciously accept feedback, even if it's not delivered in the kindest way But nobody teaches it. It was never in a training. I never learned it in school. It's almost like nobody knows it exists! Anyway, btw, thanks for your work. I recently signed up for your newsletter and it's been really wonderful. I really enjoy the kindness you bring to your writing.

haswell 6y ago

As someone who has just started a 4 week break spurred on by a burnout-induced breakdown at work, this is very timely. I do wonder if it’s reasonable to think that 4 weeks is enough. I’ve struggled with mental health issues for most of my life due to complex developmental trauma during childhood, and in 2020, I’ve found that it’s very difficult to tell the difference between work burnout, residual issues due to my trauma history, impact of world events, etc. One thing I do know for sure: research like this is so encouraging. Normalizing the conversation about mental health is so important.

pmiller2 6y ago
Hey, I've gone through a very similar situation recently, and my history is similar to what you describe here, as well. My email is in my profile, and I'd love to chat with you about it -- just put something in the subject to identify that you're haswell@HN.
- haswell 6y ago
  Thank you for the reply and offer to chat! I'm also very interested in chatting about this and I sent an email.
malux85 6y ago
I have had burnout in the past, and I’m sorry to say 4 weeks is likely not enough. For me it was about 1 year to recover. Sure I could have returned to work after a month or two, because I would no longer have been “exhausted” physically, but going straight back into it would have burnt off that top layer of rest, and still revealed the ruined core within, to truly heal it took a year, then my excitement for programming came back, the excitement about not being able to sleep because there’s so much to enjoy, and the pure joy of creation I hate that it took a year to come back, being hyper industrious this long period killed me. But I am grateful that it came back. I appreciate not everyone has the financial ability to take a year off. I didn’t either, but I was lucky that I could adapt a simple, frugal existence to survive. I support UBI or whatever form of support anyone can give people who burnout because it’s real and it’s painful. I wish you all the best in your recovery, and wrote this to tell you there is light at the end of the tunnel

lemonlizzie 6y ago

good read!

davesque 6y ago

While I see that this research is aimed at leadership positions and this must surely be a problem, I feel obligated to point out that the issue of burnout could be an even worse problem in non-leadership positions. It seems that a lot of the suggested solutions (take time off, be more honest about your emotions, etc.) are necessarily things that are difficult to do for people who are not in management positions. Requesting long blocks of time off or being forthcoming about your emotions are easily things that can be used against you in employee reviews and other similar situations. In cases of severe burnout, the situation is more dire since people earning a lower salary might simply not be able to step back from work to take a year off, for example (something that was suggested by another poster here).

Aqua 6y ago
While I understand the intention to highlight the other side of the problem, all these issues are significantly more severe for people in leadership positions. I can't imagine taking more than 2 weeks off from work. These solutions aren't really solutions unless the person in question decides to quit their job. There is no snowballs chance in hell that a company will tolerate absence of their management staff that is longer than 4 weeks. A replacement or substituion would be required fairly soon. Being open about one's emotion in a leadership position is a ridiculous advice, it's obvious that the authors have no idea what they're recommending.
- alxlaz 6y ago
  > There is no snowballs chance in hell that a company will tolerate absence of their management staff that is longer than 4 weeks. I've worked in places where, at any given time, at least one something-something manager was on a one-year sabbatical. One of them literally requested it -- and got it -- in order to spend more time with their daughter, who was going to college the following year, since that was their last chance to spend quality time with her for a few years. Lots of people in a non-management positions have trouble attending their kids' graduation ceremonies if they're out of state -- getting a whole year off to see them off to college is pretty much science fiction. Yes, they generally didn't leave smack in the middle of a project, but there's a lot of no man's land in-between projects. I don't understand how any of this is surprising. Justifiably or not, benefits and perks are clustered around leadership positions, that's literally one of the reasons why people are seeking them. Plus, in many large companies, it can easily take 6-12 months to recruit someone for a leadership position. Granting three-month vacations to the people you already have is a really good idea.

lighttower 6y ago

There are 13 responses from Canada, but 89 from Toronto. Did the author intend to write 9 ?

jonnymiller 6y ago
The author did indeed (fixed) thanks for catching that (it slipped by us & our proof-reader)

KennyHanson 6y ago

This is really insightful, thanks for sharing. I've had my own challenges with burnout. It's why I ended up leaving the corporate world. I've been working on a startup for about a year and while I feel a lot better, I have noticed that I'm not taking any time off. I fortunately have a good group of coaches & mentors around me now that are looking out for me, which has been life saving. I will definitely dive deeper into the report and use some of these tools to build resilience for myself and my team.

Whitespace 6y ago

Here's a handy link to the PDF, which is easier on the eyes than google docs: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KaPv-yVxjLb8b4WlF0nsAA5b6ftAsYw3/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KaPv-yVxjLb8b4WlF0nsAA5b6ft... This was a phenomenal read and led me to ask my own question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24265697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24265697

jonnymiller 6y ago
Appreciate that Tom, and yes the PDF is a more readable summary for those who don't have time to read all the way through the 60+ page Gdoc ;) And a support group / Slack channel for Software Engineers sounds like a superb idea.

bistro17 6y ago

cold showers - recommend Wimhoff

mlthoughts2018 6y ago

Despite the praise, I don’t see much of value. This is taxonomic in nature, giving you some loose categories to decompose sources of stress and emotional debt, but tons of research has been done in these areas, and this survey is a bit contrived with not very much data in the scheme of things. None of that is a big deal really, but what bugs me is nothing in the document offers concrete strategy or tactics to resolve emotional debt or burnout. Advice like “be self-aware” and “go for a walk” and “get enough sleep” is terrible because everyone is already trying all that and burnout hits you specifically when circumstances prevent you from adequately “just” doing them. It’s empty non-advice, very similar to saying “eat right & exercise” to a depressed person. It reminds me a bit of this discussion of severe life events as a major explainer of most depression, https://grasshoppermouse.github.io/2018/12/16/seven-reasons-why-major-depression-is-probably-not-a-brain-disorder/ https://grasshoppermouse.github.io/2018/12/16/seven-reasons-... It’s the same with burnout. You can torture out “shadow” reasons all you want, but it’s really deflecting from the big obvious fact that un-live-with-able circumstances are un-live-with-able and you need to actually fix and remove traumatic circumstances. You should not talk about or endorse “being resilient” to them, because it’s just victim blaming “you need to take care of yourself” dressed up in pseudotheory. Honestly I see more harm than good in analysis like this. Especially in terms of letting corporations and HR departments deflect and ignore fixing toxic work environments rampant with major burnout stressors, by supplying braindead platitudes like “go for a walk” or “be self-aware” and even worse saying, “look our leaders are doing it, so they’re not asking you to do something they themselves aren’t doing.”

jonnymiller 6y ago
Hi, appreciate the feedback (I'm Jonny, one of the co-authors), writing this we were conscious of framing this report not as a finished artefact, but as the beginning of a multi-year resilience research study and we fully acknowledge that it raises more questions than it provides answers. However, we also did make an effort to outline some concrete strategies for relieving emotional debt in section 7 and also outlined in the [wiki](http://resilient.wiki/ http://resilient.wiki/), which include daily/weekly/monthly/annual activities (although by no means an exhaustive list and invite readers to contribute additional suggestions). > re: Especially in terms of letting corporations and HR departments deflect and ignore fixing toxic work environments rampant with major burnout stressors This may be well the case in some organisations and part of our intention with the 'Shadow Stressors' framework was to shed light on those sources of stress in the 'ambient/external quadrant' which would likely fall under the responsibility of the organisation's leadership to address.

lostdog 6y ago

This is a good discussion of burnout overall, but it's missing a key part: Sometimes you're in a terrible environment and need to leave. The company you work for could be terrible, and no amount of emotional calisthenics will prepare you for trying to breathe on the surface of the moon.

zloof 6y ago

Really relate to this. I shut down my startup in April. On paper, we ran out of money. Behind the scenes, I finally paid the toll/ burnt out after 1-2 years of constant unexpected, unpredictable shocks. As a solo founder with investors, there was no escape, no one to run things while I took time off, and no way to leave without ending the company. At points, if my phone buzzed with a text message, I would go into a panic attack, expecting another problem. I’m now reading a book on the impact of trauma on psychology and while my experience was nothing compared to people who went to war, etc - I see a lot of similarities. Eg there are external triggers that shock your body without your control. One of the frustrating parts was that I knew it was happening as it was happening. I had the language to identify I was burnt out, had a coach, a therapist, tried to leverage a support network, etc. I do wish there were more solutions for this. At a minimum, it’s good that this issue is getting talked about more and more. An important requirement to take a sabbatical as in the example in the paper is having buy-in from board members, investors, or team mates, so getting more people on board with mental health is key. Question - curious if anyone has seen any books on burnout recovery. Thus far, 4 months in, it’s quite a long process.

alm1 6y ago
it's very individual and you may not find a "recovery template". Personally, I find that best remedies are 1) attaching yourself to a bigger goal, where even "at least I tried" and "at least I've advanced X area by a few steps" are fulfilling narratives. 2) finding something no matter how small, where you excel. Hobbies are great. Maybe your startup is a mess, but your bird dog yoga pose is pure perfection. (1) helps deal with the shocks of failures and (2) helps refill your confidence tank to try at the problem one more time.
mnaei 6y ago
> I’m now reading a book on the impact of trauma on psychology It would be wonderful if you are able to share the name of the book. I am interested in giving it a read.

known 6y ago

Protect yourself from Machiavellianism (willingness to manipulate and deceive others), Narcissism (egotism and self-obsession), Psychopathy (lack of remorse and empathy), Sadism (pleasure in suffering of others)

totetsu 6y ago

On a vaguely related note, the 'How I built this' podcast has recently been running a 'How I built resilience' series, focusing on how founders and entrepreneurs are navigating turbulent times. https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this

jonnymiller 6y ago
Thanks for sharing this, I'll have a listen!

curlyQueue 6y ago

Just my tidbit: I am 8 months into my journey after severe burnout (decided to take n amount of time off till I felt “right” last December). I am not a founder, but have worked in high caliber roles for the last few years (I am still fairly early in my career). My last job was at a YC company. I started out thinking it’d be 2 months. Then 4. Then it turned into 6. I panicked a lot in the beginning, I am used to overworking or nothing. It just took time, and things started to fall into place mentally (and even physically). Now I’ve accepted that at a year, I believe I’ll be ready. I’m happy to report I feel motivation creeping in - and my creative wheels have been turning. It’s really about where to channel things next. It is the most refreshing and rewarding feeling in the world, to see light at the end of the technical-block tunnel. If I’m completely honest, there are still days when I dread the thought of returning to the screen, even when I don’t want to - but those days are less and less. I’m extremely fortunate to have been able to do this. Burnouts are like bad breakups - our nerves are likes wounds, and it just takes time to heal them after putting them on overdrive for extended periods of time. The emotional toll is taxing, a high and illogical price to pay when you consider resting like we are designed to do. Just my two cents, good luck!