5 ms·

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but can anybody point to an example of machine learning used in law enforcement that hasn't lead to inequitable outcomes?

by cultus 6y ago

hammock 6y ago
Equally non snarky, what is something in law enforcement that has led to equitable outcomes?
- glenda 6y ago
  The more I look into the history and tactics of modern policing the more this becomes apparent. Police are willing to use broken machine learning technology because it “works for them” - they don’t necessarily care about accuracy they just want someone locked up.
  - vorpalhex 6y ago
    The police are fundamentally a low paid blue collar labor force with union protections. They are not your college professor or the protagonist of a murder mystery, but more like a plumber or construction worker. The moment you understand that, it's not a mystery that they sort of blindly accept tools that seem to work without deep introspection. They are not equipped to be a data analytics shop, they are equipped to fill out paperwork and sometimes get into tussles.
    - bkor 6y ago
      > The police are fundamentally a low paid blue collar labor force with union protections Please keep in mind that this is not true worldwide. In various countries you're only admitted after 1.5-2 years of police-specific education. You might still not be a police officer if they seem you unfit. Also, you don't seem to value plumbers or construction workers. A colleague used to be a construction worker. It's very interesting to hear the knowledge he has on that. Plus pretty damn handy for understanding how to improve your house. Just because he did a lot of work with his hands doesn't mean he isn't damn bright.
      - vorpalhex 6y ago
        At no point did I indicate I don't value blue collar workers such as plumbers or construction workers, quite the opposite. At most I said the police were low paid blue collar workers - and in general I do believe most blue collar workers are underpaid. For what it's worth, I do also value our police forces, even with their flaws. But a blue collar profession has a different set of knowledge handling than a white collar one - it's not that one is better or worse, but they are intrinsically different ways of knowing. > Please keep in mind that this is not true worldwide You're correct and my comment is US centric. What I find interesting is that some US cities have seemingly moved farther from a more educated police force, removing requirements around having college degrees and reducing trainings.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  Enforcement of the laws is generally an equitable outcome. I'm not saying the law is perfect, but the burden of crime falls disproportionately on the least privileged. In a city with a lot of burglars, the rich buy insurance and private security and shotguns while the poor just don't get to feel safe in their homes.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    Ah, but the laws themselves are unjust. Stealing $5 from your work till is an imprisonable offense, stealing $100 from your employee's paycheck may result in you having to pay it back.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. - Anatole France
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      Again, I agree the law is unjust in some ways! Many forms of wage theft ought to be crimes. What doesn't make sense to me is the implication that decriminalizing petty theft would make the law more just. If people go around stealing $5 all the time, Walmart can absorb that loss - the guy who's flat broke until his paycheck this Friday can't.
    - vorpalhex 6y ago
      > Stealing $5 from your work till is an imprisonable offense Unless you pointed a gun or knife at your coworker, no it's not. > but the laws themselves are unjust Then address the laws and move to change them.
      - vertex-four 6y ago
        > Unless you pointed a gun or knife at your coworker, no it's not. Technically, yes, it is in most states if the judge wanted to throw the book at you (for example, if you've ever committed a crime before) - https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/petty-theft.htm#states https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federa... - and not only that but three strikes laws can result in imprisonment even if it wasn't.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  >Equally non snarky, what is something in law enforcement that has led to equitable outcomes? DNA. I can't think of anything that was developed by law enforcement for law enforcement though.
busterarm 6y ago
https://nypost.com/2019/08/25/how-nypds-facial-recognition-software-ided-subway-rice-cooker-kook/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/25/how-nypds-facial-recognition-s... https://www.wired.com/story/how-facial-recognition-fighting-child-sex-trafficking/ https://www.wired.com/story/how-facial-recognition-fighting-... https://digital.1105media.com/SP/2019/CSS_1904/SI_APR19_SUP_CSLS_701922949.html#p=10 https://digital.1105media.com/SP/2019/CSS_1904/SI_APR19_SUP_... https://morningconsult.com/opinions/touchless-interface-for-hygienic-access-in-health-care-and-travel/ https://morningconsult.com/opinions/touchless-interface-for-... https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2018/05/nist-study-shows-face-recognition-experts-perform-better-ai-partner https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2018/05/nist-study-sho... https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2018/06/29/capital-gazette-gunman-identified-using-facial-recognition-technology/744344002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2018/06/29/c... https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20200115/110380/HHRG-116-GO00-20200115-SD006.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20200115/110380/HHRG... https://nypost.com/2019/08/05/facial-recognition-leads-cops-to-alleged-rapist-in-under-24-hours/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/05/facial-recognition-leads-cops-... https://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/illinois/u-s-marshals-arrest-fugitive-in-munster-payday-loan-business/article_9e538765-53a0-52f7-bc8a-34baa5bbdc54.html https://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/illinois/u-s-marshals-ar... https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/long-time-fugitive-neil-stammer-captured/long-time-fugitive-neil-stammer-captured https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/long-time-fugitive-neil-sta... https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2017/01/20/alleged-child-molester-caught-after-18-years-thanks-to-facial-recognition/ https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2017/01/20/alleged-child-mo... https://www.nextgov.com/emerging-tech/2018/11/cbps-facial-biometrics-program-has-caught-26-alleged-imposters/152957/ https://www.nextgov.com/emerging-tech/2018/11/cbps-facial-bi...
- pessimizer 6y ago
  Could you just pick the clearest cut one, and type a few sentences explaining it? edit: not trying to get you to do my work for me, but for an existence proof people don't commonly list a bunch of things by name without explaining how they apply. They list one thing (or one class of things, or how to construct a thing), and exactly how it applies.
- jhayward 6y ago

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but can anybody point to an example of machine learning used in law enforcement that hasn't lead to inequitable outcomes?

by cultus 6y ago

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but can anybody point to an example of machine learning used in law enforcement that hasn't lead to inequitable outcomes?

hammock 6y ago

Equally non snarky, what is something in law enforcement that has led to equitable outcomes?

glenda 6y ago
The more I look into the history and tactics of modern policing the more this becomes apparent. Police are willing to use broken machine learning technology because it “works for them” - they don’t necessarily care about accuracy they just want someone locked up.
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  The police are fundamentally a low paid blue collar labor force with union protections. They are not your college professor or the protagonist of a murder mystery, but more like a plumber or construction worker. The moment you understand that, it's not a mystery that they sort of blindly accept tools that seem to work without deep introspection. They are not equipped to be a data analytics shop, they are equipped to fill out paperwork and sometimes get into tussles.
  - bkor 6y ago
    > The police are fundamentally a low paid blue collar labor force with union protections Please keep in mind that this is not true worldwide. In various countries you're only admitted after 1.5-2 years of police-specific education. You might still not be a police officer if they seem you unfit. Also, you don't seem to value plumbers or construction workers. A colleague used to be a construction worker. It's very interesting to hear the knowledge he has on that. Plus pretty damn handy for understanding how to improve your house. Just because he did a lot of work with his hands doesn't mean he isn't damn bright.
    - vorpalhex 6y ago
      At no point did I indicate I don't value blue collar workers such as plumbers or construction workers, quite the opposite. At most I said the police were low paid blue collar workers - and in general I do believe most blue collar workers are underpaid. For what it's worth, I do also value our police forces, even with their flaws. But a blue collar profession has a different set of knowledge handling than a white collar one - it's not that one is better or worse, but they are intrinsically different ways of knowing. > Please keep in mind that this is not true worldwide You're correct and my comment is US centric. What I find interesting is that some US cities have seemingly moved farther from a more educated police force, removing requirements around having college degrees and reducing trainings.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
Enforcement of the laws is generally an equitable outcome. I'm not saying the law is perfect, but the burden of crime falls disproportionately on the least privileged. In a city with a lot of burglars, the rich buy insurance and private security and shotguns while the poor just don't get to feel safe in their homes.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  Ah, but the laws themselves are unjust. Stealing $5 from your work till is an imprisonable offense, stealing $100 from your employee's paycheck may result in you having to pay it back.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. - Anatole France
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    Again, I agree the law is unjust in some ways! Many forms of wage theft ought to be crimes. What doesn't make sense to me is the implication that decriminalizing petty theft would make the law more just. If people go around stealing $5 all the time, Walmart can absorb that loss - the guy who's flat broke until his paycheck this Friday can't.
  - vorpalhex 6y ago
    > Stealing $5 from your work till is an imprisonable offense Unless you pointed a gun or knife at your coworker, no it's not. > but the laws themselves are unjust Then address the laws and move to change them.
    - vertex-four 6y ago
      > Unless you pointed a gun or knife at your coworker, no it's not. Technically, yes, it is in most states if the judge wanted to throw the book at you (for example, if you've ever committed a crime before) - https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/petty-theft.htm#states https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federa... - and not only that but three strikes laws can result in imprisonment even if it wasn't.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
>Equally non snarky, what is something in law enforcement that has led to equitable outcomes? DNA. I can't think of anything that was developed by law enforcement for law enforcement though.

busterarm 6y ago

https://nypost.com/2019/08/25/how-nypds-facial-recognition-software-ided-subway-rice-cooker-kook/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/25/how-nypds-facial-recognition-s... https://www.wired.com/story/how-facial-recognition-fighting-child-sex-trafficking/ https://www.wired.com/story/how-facial-recognition-fighting-... https://digital.1105media.com/SP/2019/CSS_1904/SI_APR19_SUP_CSLS_701922949.html#p=10 https://digital.1105media.com/SP/2019/CSS_1904/SI_APR19_SUP_... https://morningconsult.com/opinions/touchless-interface-for-hygienic-access-in-health-care-and-travel/ https://morningconsult.com/opinions/touchless-interface-for-... https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2018/05/nist-study-shows-face-recognition-experts-perform-better-ai-partner https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2018/05/nist-study-sho... https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2018/06/29/capital-gazette-gunman-identified-using-facial-recognition-technology/744344002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2018/06/29/c... https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20200115/110380/HHRG-116-GO00-20200115-SD006.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20200115/110380/HHRG... https://nypost.com/2019/08/05/facial-recognition-leads-cops-to-alleged-rapist-in-under-24-hours/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/05/facial-recognition-leads-cops-... https://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/illinois/u-s-marshals-arrest-fugitive-in-munster-payday-loan-business/article_9e538765-53a0-52f7-bc8a-34baa5bbdc54.html https://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/illinois/u-s-marshals-ar... https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/long-time-fugitive-neil-stammer-captured/long-time-fugitive-neil-stammer-captured https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/long-time-fugitive-neil-sta... https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2017/01/20/alleged-child-molester-caught-after-18-years-thanks-to-facial-recognition/ https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2017/01/20/alleged-child-mo... https://www.nextgov.com/emerging-tech/2018/11/cbps-facial-biometrics-program-has-caught-26-alleged-imposters/152957/ https://www.nextgov.com/emerging-tech/2018/11/cbps-facial-bi...

pessimizer 6y ago
Could you just pick the clearest cut one, and type a few sentences explaining it? edit: not trying to get you to do my work for me, but for an existence proof people don't commonly list a bunch of things by name without explaining how they apply. They list one thing (or one class of things, or how to construct a thing), and exactly how it applies.
jhayward 6y ago