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The framework given in the first paragraph (which both I and de Botton reject) is fundamentally wrong because marriage is not something you "do", it's something

The framework given in the first paragraph (which both I and de Botton reject) is fundamentally wrong because marriage is not something you "do", it's something you make. One of the foremost requirements going in to a marriage is that both partners understand this. You will marry the right person if you change your axioms. de Botton kind of alludes to this here but in a wordy and deeply pessimistic way, but I don't think that's a good framing for it. > It might sound odd, but pessimism relieves the excessive imaginative pressure that our romantic culture places upon marriage > Romanticism has been unhelpful to us; it is a harsh philosophy. It has made a lot of what we go through in marriage seem exceptional and appalling. I disagree, contrary to what he says a Romantic (in the literary sense) view always allows us to be flawed, because it always contains room for redemption. Thinking that marriage will be some kind of perfect union is rationalist thinking, like designing a system of gears. Thinking of marriage as union of two people who work together for something greater that both can share the fruits of is irrational thinking we need and can easily intuit. We're just really good at shunning this kind of thinking, these days. In the end we both agree, he says: "Compatibility is an achievement of love; it must not be its precondition." I just think his framing here is needlessly pessimistic and dismissive of the romantic forces, and probably a terrible way to approach most of life's difficulties, never-mind marriage.

karlerss 6y ago
There is a movie[0] quote: "people don't break up because they grow tired, but because they grow impatient". [0]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0834170/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0834170/
phoe-krk 6y ago
> because marriage is not something you "do", it's something you make. This is a bold assumption that will not hold in many countries and regions that consider marriage as something that is "done", especially if the act that proclaims it as "done" it's performed in the presence of some holy man, in a holy building, and if the marriage is, in any way, legally or morally "irreversible" or impossible to effectively unmake even for strongest and most plausible reasons to do so. Such rules, counter-intuitively, make it much harder for marriages to be happy. If a marriage is "done", then there's no point in trying to "make" it - whether it means to make it better, make it worthwhile, or even make it happen with someone better-suited for the role.
- tcskeptic 6y ago
  Is this an evidence based opinion? I am trying to find evidence myself -- but my memory is that religiosity is well correlated with marital satisfaction. If you have something that supports the opposite conclusion I would be interested in reading it.
  - phoe-krk 6y ago
    Just a single point of data here, since I come from a rural, highly religious Catholic part of Eastern Europe. Multiple marriages in my family (not my parents', luckily) were broken despite a lot of self-proclaimed religiousness among the people in there. On a second thought I assume it is because poverty, alcoholism, and family traumas (ranging back to WW2 and UPA/UIA raids) are all common in the lands of my origin, and religiousness becomes more like another drug and less like an actual, sane belief system.
- simonsarris 6y ago
  I disagree. The irreversible nature makes the case for "making" it (work) stronger. I'm reminded of GK Chesterton, in Heretics: "Posting a letter and getting married are among the few things left that are entirely romantic; for to be entirely romantic a thing must be irrevocable."
  - goatlover 6y ago
    Except for the people who made a bad mistake and chose someone they would be better of not being married too.
- jtbayly 6y ago
  It is precisely the sanctity of marriage in those cultural expectations that pushes you to keep making something. I a marriage is irrevocable, you better do your best to "make" it good. In a culture of disposable marriage, there is little reason to invest deeply in building, since the whole thing can be torn down in a second.
  - 6y ago
ryanmarsh 6y ago
Simon, once again, wise beyond his years. I love watching this young man and his new family grow together.
dpweb 6y ago
The extremely high failure rate indicates it is either a flawed concept entirely, or people are going about it completely the wrong way. If you had a computer that only booted, or a car that only started, 40% of the time - you wouldn't say, well.. the system is ok - sometimes it works out! Still, it is encouraged on every front. Venerated by society, and financially subsidized by the state. Yet when its failing, very little good advice available. I've found most marriage counseling to be very unhelpful. Designed to save something (that maybe be shouldn't be saved) with really weak aphorisms that don't get to the psychological depths needed to explore WHY we do the things we do, attract and even unconsciously desire chaos and failure, etc.. But married couples too often lose the fact that it's about the relationship first. More important than the house, the cars, even the kids. People forget that everything started with two people and two people only. They stop having compassion and being kind to one another. They stop having sex (so important), that feeds the relationship. The relationship is a living thing. If you starve it, it dies.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  A minority of people account for the majority of divorces. Not that many people are doing it wrong.
  - Godel_unicode 6y ago
    41% (the divorce rate for first marriages), while technically a minority, is still quite a lot of people. I wouldn't go so far as to say "not many" are doing it wrong.
    - eternalban 6y ago
      A cursory review of cultural and “critical” output of the past few decades shows a consistent onslaught on the institution of marriage. While difficult to quantify, it seems reasonable to consider the significant (if not critical) impact of these factors on the erosion of the institution of marriage.
      - 6y ago
teleforce 6y ago
Ahh, the burden of Anna Karenina principle, "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way"- Leo Tolstoy

karlerss 6y ago

There is a movie[0] quote: "people don't break up because they grow tired, but because they grow impatient". [0]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0834170/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0834170/

phoe-krk 6y ago

> because marriage is not something you "do", it's something you make. This is a bold assumption that will not hold in many countries and regions that consider marriage as something that is "done", especially if the act that proclaims it as "done" it's performed in the presence of some holy man, in a holy building, and if the marriage is, in any way, legally or morally "irreversible" or impossible to effectively unmake even for strongest and most plausible reasons to do so. Such rules, counter-intuitively, make it much harder for marriages to be happy. If a marriage is "done", then there's no point in trying to "make" it - whether it means to make it better, make it worthwhile, or even make it happen with someone better-suited for the role.

tcskeptic 6y ago
Is this an evidence based opinion? I am trying to find evidence myself -- but my memory is that religiosity is well correlated with marital satisfaction. If you have something that supports the opposite conclusion I would be interested in reading it.
- phoe-krk 6y ago
  Just a single point of data here, since I come from a rural, highly religious Catholic part of Eastern Europe. Multiple marriages in my family (not my parents', luckily) were broken despite a lot of self-proclaimed religiousness among the people in there. On a second thought I assume it is because poverty, alcoholism, and family traumas (ranging back to WW2 and UPA/UIA raids) are all common in the lands of my origin, and religiousness becomes more like another drug and less like an actual, sane belief system.
simonsarris 6y ago
I disagree. The irreversible nature makes the case for "making" it (work) stronger. I'm reminded of GK Chesterton, in Heretics: "Posting a letter and getting married are among the few things left that are entirely romantic; for to be entirely romantic a thing must be irrevocable."
- goatlover 6y ago
  Except for the people who made a bad mistake and chose someone they would be better of not being married too.
jtbayly 6y ago
It is precisely the sanctity of marriage in those cultural expectations that pushes you to keep making something. I a marriage is irrevocable, you better do your best to "make" it good. In a culture of disposable marriage, there is little reason to invest deeply in building, since the whole thing can be torn down in a second.
- 6y ago

ryanmarsh 6y ago

Simon, once again, wise beyond his years. I love watching this young man and his new family grow together.

dpweb 6y ago

The extremely high failure rate indicates it is either a flawed concept entirely, or people are going about it completely the wrong way. If you had a computer that only booted, or a car that only started, 40% of the time - you wouldn't say, well.. the system is ok - sometimes it works out! Still, it is encouraged on every front. Venerated by society, and financially subsidized by the state. Yet when its failing, very little good advice available. I've found most marriage counseling to be very unhelpful. Designed to save something (that maybe be shouldn't be saved) with really weak aphorisms that don't get to the psychological depths needed to explore WHY we do the things we do, attract and even unconsciously desire chaos and failure, etc.. But married couples too often lose the fact that it's about the relationship first. More important than the house, the cars, even the kids. People forget that everything started with two people and two people only. They stop having compassion and being kind to one another. They stop having sex (so important), that feeds the relationship. The relationship is a living thing. If you starve it, it dies.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
A minority of people account for the majority of divorces. Not that many people are doing it wrong.
- Godel_unicode 6y ago
  41% (the divorce rate for first marriages), while technically a minority, is still quite a lot of people. I wouldn't go so far as to say "not many" are doing it wrong.
  - eternalban 6y ago
    A cursory review of cultural and “critical” output of the past few decades shows a consistent onslaught on the institution of marriage. While difficult to quantify, it seems reasonable to consider the significant (if not critical) impact of these factors on the erosion of the institution of marriage.
    - 6y ago

teleforce 6y ago

Ahh, the burden of Anna Karenina principle, "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way"- Leo Tolstoy