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"Why are so many things so much nicer in Switzerland and Japan?" Figuring out why this is without fully attributing it to culture has been of great fascination

"Why are so many things so much nicer in Switzerland and Japan?" Figuring out why this is without fully attributing it to culture has been of great fascination to me. It really is mindblowing just how _good_ things are in Japan, perhaps they're just highly optimized for tourism? The cleanliness, the service, the great care people place in doing things and in their work is just amazing. Anyone here have more insights on this question? What are the non-cultural factors which contribute to this phenomenon that seemingly makes Japan an outlier?

donw 6y ago
I live in Japan, and have for about a decade. You're bang-on when it comes to culture, but it has nothing to do with being optimized for tourism. Japan is a very conservative country. Change happens slowly here, and Japan does a lot to ensure that people raised here share a common culture, with a strong focus on stability and harmony. To provide some examples: - NHK, the national broadcaster, has several series of popular programs showing life across all of Japan -- rural, urban, suburban, every prefecture. There are also programs showing Japanese people living overseas, and showing how they have integrated into the local culture. There is no "rural vs urban" divide in Japan. - Japanese schools focus heavily on structure and responsibility. Students maintain their classrooms, clean their bathrooms, staff the cafeterias, etc. All of this is under adult supervision, but the kids do the actual work. Discipline is strong as well -- there are real consequences for poor behavior. - Japan follows the Prussian education model. Compulsory schooling ends at 14 (9th grade). From there, you can immediately begin working, go to a trade school, or go to high school. There is also a professional education track separate from university. - There is a strong culture around keeping families whole and raising kids as a whole family in Japan. Often the wife will move back home and live with her family shortly before and after childbirth, and there's a lot of cultural reinforcement there. - Parents are very active in the education of their children, and the locus of responsibility is first on the child, second on the parent. - The Koban system is fantastic. Police live in their communities, and interact with people every day. You never want to end up on the wrong side of the law -- the conviction rate is well north of 90%, and the accused have very few rights here -- but overall, Japanese police are very polite and professional. There are downsides to this -- everything comes with trade-offs -- but it delivers a very stable and safe society.
- actuator 6y ago
  Few questions, would be glad if anyone can answer these: - Would you know of good companies which have a good work life balance in Japan? - I know among the big tech, Microsoft and Google have offices there. Both seem to pay well as well. Do they have similar WLB as their US offices? - I have heard of racism, like certain apartments being off limits for non Japanese people. Some clubs only allowing white caucasians among foreigners. How true is this in your experience? - I have no problem in learning Japanese over time, but without it at the start, is it very difficult to get by? - Do most people live in Tokyo/Kyoto(where Tech companies seem to be) itself or can you live a bit in outskirts(a bit of greenery) and commute using the fast public transport?
  - donw 6y ago
    Of course. :) I'm not sure "work-life balance" is even the right concept in Japan. Japanese companies are structured around the idea that you devote your life to the organization. Overtime and weekend work are common. In exchange, the company will take care of you: you will never be fired, you will be provided with access to a broad social network, a group of friends, a spouse should you desire, and enough salary for your station in life until you reach retirement. If you are satisfied with that contract, you will be happy. If not, you won't. Working for a big US-based tech company here, you get the best-ish of both worlds. Salaries are much higher -- although not on par with the US -- and your working environment will be much more familiar. The downside is that you are very insulated from Japanese society as a whole. The "Gaijin Bubble" is a thing, and it's incredibly hard to break out of. One of my buddies -- who "happens to be black" as George Carlin would say -- describes Japanese racism as "racism done right". I'd say I agree with his assessment. I've been denied apartments, had an ex whose family hated foreigners, and been refused entry to a restaurant once, but that's all fairly uncommon. You are unlikely to experience violence, although the police will -- very politely -- pay more attention to you than they would natives. Tokyoites are used to foreigners, and outside of that, you're a curiosity? Also, speaking Japanese opens many doors. I once had a nightmare of a time getting a taxi, but they would stop to pick up Japanese people. Once I finally flagged one down, I asked the driver why. He was thrilled that I spoke Japanese, and mentioned that, in that area, most foreigners (a) couldn't speak the language; (b) wanted a long taxi ride; and (c) often fought with the drivers and refused to pay (taxis are not cheap here). Remote work is a thing now, but before that, you lived in Tokyo. You can easily live in a bedroom community and commute -- some people do 4+ hours per day on a shinkansen. On the off chance that I do stay here, I will likely move to a semi-rural area and telecommute full time. Your company (nominally) pays your commuting costs. Japanese is straightforward to learn, but you really have to devote time to it. Plan a few years of total immersion. Also, it's not a European language, so outside of the grammatical differences, there's just a ton of culture where there is no overlap -- I didn't really appreciate just how deep Christianity's roots were in Europe until moving here -- it's crazy. As a tiny example, the little grill that you cook "Ghengis Khan" on is called a "shichirin" -- which is a specifically-shaped wheel from Buddhist teachings.
icelancer 6y ago
...have you considered that things are much nicer there but at great cost to the sections of people they consider "not nice?" Especially in Japan?
- verroq 6y ago
  Good. A country should foremost look after its own people. Worry about foreigners (gaijin) later.
  - vore 6y ago
    I don't think the parent comment was alluding to only foreigners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi is one of the unfortunate social phenomena that's notable in Japan from the culture and the pressure of conformity.
  - mef 6y ago
    _Gaijin_ is commonly used for non-Asian foreigner. Take a look at how citizens of non-Japanese heritage are treated if you want to understand what the parent comment is referring to. For example, Korean or Chinese heritage Japanese, or Ainu (indigenous Japanese)
    - verroq 6y ago
      They are pretty xenophobic, if you are Chinese or worse Korean you might as well be a gaijin.
    - icelancer 6y ago
      Ha, or worse, Japanese-American.
- deleted 6y ago
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andrewstuart 6y ago
I visited Japan and was just astounded at how much better the society is run. As a tourist, my obviously naive impression was of a place that is incredibly well organised, that seems to have no trouble investing in its own infrastructure, that is extremely safe and clean and generally prosperous. Where the people seem to have a sense of joy and fun. Just. so. well. organised. I really loved Japan. My favorite country in so many ways. I really wish I'd visited when younger and maybe lived there for a while. I did feel unsafe and threatened during my trip there at one point when an Australian tourist became belligerent and angry when someone (not Japanese of course) stepped ahead of him in a queue. I felt ashamed at his behavior.
- drcode 6y ago
  I agree Japan is awesome (visited twice) but let's not overlook this: https://www.businessinsider.com/world-suicide-rate-map-2014-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/world-suicide-rate-map-2014-...
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    ...or that hundreds of Tokyo buildings will collapse in the next big earthquake? Or have they been fixed, since we learned about it? If so, how?
    - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
      Could ask the same about SF, LA, maybe Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver and really anything in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone I'd trust the Japanese more in anything related to earthquake proof building, in spite of their little fuck-up with Fukushima. At the end of the day, no matter where and when you are, it's your mandatory share of risk in the lottery of life. Deal with it.
      - ncmncm 6y ago
        The recent claim (maybe 10 ya) was that Yakuza influence forced inspectors to sign off on foundations that were not sound. So they do not have the required pilings. I don't know how that could be fixed, but I don't assert it couldn't be. I assume if it is, it would have been done by now.
verroq 6y ago
Ethno states with shared culture and little internal division due to racial tensions tend to run quite well. See: China, Korea, Norway, Denmark, Czech republic
- bawolff 6y ago
  Counterpoint: North Korea.
  - actuator 6y ago
    I am sometimes baffled at how the leaders at NK can't have a look at just down the DMZ and see what they could have. The difference in social indicators is magnitudes better. Their ideology has been proven so wrong. I wonder what will take them to just give up. If they are worried about punishments for what they have done, they could just cut a deal to let them have a lot of assets and be immune from judgement against past crimes.
    - bawolff 6y ago
      I'm sure the leaders enjoy their position in north korea quite a lot. Better to be a king in somewhere like North Korea than to be an ordinary person somewhere else.
      - actuator 6y ago
        Could end up as a rich real estate mogul though as a unification condition. Still a decent deal. Probably have to be at that position to understand that rationale I guess, right now it just seems heartless.
      - geofft 6y ago
        Really? I mean, think of the story of Boris Yeltsin visiting a grocery store. Is the life of the average North Korean government official actually better than my life as an SRE in Brooklyn? I think I have way more access to luxuries than they do.
  - 6y ago
ffggvv 6y ago
why can’t you just attribute it to culture? it’s clearly that
- nemothekid 6y ago
  You can, but it looks like everyone else in this thread is lazer focused on Japan (likely due to the prestige of Japanese culture). But that doesn't explain Switzerland. Is Switzerland closer to Japanese in culture than they are to Dutch? I think obviously not, but from the thread you would assume otherwsie.
  - deleted 6y ago
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  - badestrand 6y ago
    Both countries (Switzerland and Japan) have a culture of a focus on quality, so they are very close in this trait. The Dutch are IMO very pragmatic people that, while quality is important to them, are more willing to sacrifice it for other things that are of higher priority. So it's not about a general sharing of culture but only about sharing the quality-focus aspect.
    - Robin_Message 6y ago
      I had a colleague who insisted on quality in every bit of our software and the results were similar perhaps: locally, each thing might take more time and more care, but the global result was everything working better and being done more easily. So perhaps focusing in quality and assuming efficiency will come from global effects is a good strategy? (Reminds me also of The score takes care of itself business book)
kevindong 6y ago
I've only been to Switzerland once and that was during a <2 hour layover in the Zurich airport. As an American used to frequently decrepit American airports/infrastructure, I was seriously shocked at how nice the entire airport was. The aesthetic of the airport was just quintessentially Swiss (aka beautifully minimalistic). When I pay for something with an American credit card in Europe, the machine prints out a receipt for me to sign. I was buying a snack at a store in the Zurich airport and the clerk actually compared the signature on the back of my card to the signature that I scrawled on the receipt. That was the one and only time I've ever had someone do that. I generally don't put any effort into those signatures so my signature looked nothing like what was on the back of my card so the clerk actually asked me to try again.
- ghaff 6y ago
  So they have an archaic system that requires comparing a signature? I'm pretty sure I couldn't match my credit card unless I were trying to do it while looking at the card signature. I hardly consider that a benefit. And I've been through Zurich. I don't consider it anything special better or worse than going through most major European or American airports. [Oh. I take that back. I had my luggage lost on the way there by SwissAir and it was a nightmare finding who to talk to.]
  - hirsin 6y ago
    They did that because they were unfamiliar with a system that requires such a check. Every time I've been to Europe and used an American card it's been explained to me that because American cards are so far behind the times they need to specially handle my card instead of using Chip and PIN
  - deleted 6y ago
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  - graeme 6y ago
    You perhaps didn’t go through the terminal for international transiting connections (terminal E?) It is fantastic. Just about the best airport experience I’ve had. Easy to get from one point to another, nice lounges if you have access, and outdoor viewing decks. The rest of the airport is just so so. And it’s confusing to get from one terminal to the next. But terminal E is a marvel. Airports actually have internationally established minimum connection times for flights, based on how long transit is expected to be. Zurich’s is among the lowest. The other comment covered the credit card issue so I won’t address that part.
tempsy 6y ago
homogenous societies are inherently more efficient? the reality is the beauty of America is that we are a heterogeneous one, but there are of course some downsides to that.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Considering that I use at least four languages[1] every day, and am thankful[2] to be living someplace that has not yet been completely overrun by chains and big box stores, I'd argue the assertion of a "heterogenous" US might need defending. On the original question: I think switzerland is nice for two reasons. (a) we didn't blow ourselves up twice last century, which meant that even with little absolute growth we went from being a relatively poor european country to a relatively rich one, and (b) putting more emphasis on quality of life than on hustle results in, well, more quality of life. [1] It doesn't work for francophones, who have a general swiss (or at best cantonal) idiom, but in swiss-german there are several isoglosses just within my valley that allow me to place a speaker. Granted, my valley has been historically universally catholic, but these days that just means that our protestants and muslims get lumped together in the "not christian" bucket :-) [2] a french friend put it this way, earlier this century: "Modern europeans are too busy feeling sorry for those poor benighted savages who had the misfortune to be born a few villages over, to bother travelling halfway around the world to bring their superior way of life to people at gunpoint." À mon avis, c pas faux.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    In the city I grew up in, official notices were routinely made in English, Spanish, and Vietnamese, and I regularly encountered people speaking Korean and Chinese as well. Even my grandma's rural town, with a population of under 5,000 and an hour's drive to the closest city, has people and restaurants representing four or five different nationalities. If you're perceiving the US as a country where everyone only speaks English and only eats at McDonalds, that's not accurate.
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
ta1234567890 6y ago
> What are the non-cultural factors which contribute to this phenomenon It's simply impossible to detach Japan from their culture. The main thing that stands out to me is their selflessness. One anectdata: Tokyo feels pretty much the opposite of NYC. In NYC it feels like people are obstacles to avoid on the way to where you are going. Nobody waits for anybody. At first it seems rude, then you realize "it's not personal" and just assume the same stance. It's ok to quickly walk in front of someone who's not paying attention, it's ok to not say hi and just quickly ask what they want. You end up thinking a city that big and with so many people can only be that way. Then you go to Japan and are completely blown away. Everybody is aware of everyone else on the street, even if it's packed people will give you the right of way, they'll wait for you if you are distracted, they'll stop and try to help you if you seem lost, and seemingly everywhere people will be super polite. To me the difference is that in NY (and maybe the US in general), I'm always first and most important, whereas in Tokyo (and probably Japan in general), everyone is more important than just myself. Two small stories about Japan: 1) a friend was trying to find a place to exchange some USD and got a bit lost, he asked a random person about it, this person walked my friend for 3 blocks to the currency exchange shop. 2) when going through a bus station in Tokyo, one of the escalators was closed for cleaning, when I walked by, the janitor was laying down flat on the floor, holding a special brush, meticulously cleaning the yellow metal mat at the entrance of the escalator, completely absorbed in what he was doing. I've never seen anyone, anywhere else in the world, put so much care into cleaning a public space.
- keiferski 6y ago
  > a friend was trying to find a place to exchange some USD and got a bit lost, he asked a random person about it, this person walked my friend for 3 blocks to the currency exchange shop. This exact same thing happened to me. Two anecdotes don't make a pattern, but...Japan does have a magnificent culture of service.
  - marcus_holmes 6y ago
    It's not service in the sense that is commonly used. They're not "serving" you by helping you. It's more of a "helping me by helping us" attitude, I think. The UK used to have this level of awareness of others, and almost this level of politeness. One of the complaints about American tourists was that they were so rude. I still find walking in a British city a pleasure (but not London, as it has lost this), because people are aware of everyone else around them, and make space for them. I find the same driving in the UK (but not London) - drivers co-operate together to keep the traffic going smoothly. People regularly let others in front of them, knowing that someone else will let them through in turn. Walking in an Australian city is a nightmare by comparison - everyone is ignorant of others around them and annoyed if they have to alter their path at all. Driving is even worse. Australian drivers are incapable of merging at a junction because they point-blank refuse to let other people in front of them. Every other car is an obstacle to be got around, a competitor that needs to be "beaten" rather than co-operated with.
calinet6 6y ago
Appreciation of systems. Continuous improvement, and respect for people. They are closer to this reality than most societies. It shows. Yet, they are not without problems, which are inextricably linked to the same culture. There are still tradeoffs.
totetsu 6y ago
As a Japan resident and expat from a small south pacific nation you may of heard of recently, I don't find Japanese "baseline execution quality" to be categorically better. There are a lot of places where it is worse. > Buses and trains are better (and more punctual); Japan's public transport is great.(where there is money) > low-end food is tastier; 50/50 on this. Maybe gyudon or kaiten-zushi are tasty, but a lot of the low end food is over processed, over packaged, over sweetened, uninspired imitations of food, factory made, prepared by low wage workers, with all the challenging and exciting bits take out. > cheap hotels are more comfortable; you even get complimentary right wing nationalist literature in the bedside table.. but This is probably true. > streets are cleaner; People just throw things where no one can see, when no one is looking. They neatly tie up their convenience store rubbish in its plastic bag, and throw it into a stream. dump their fireworks and BBQS on the beach, fluorescent lightbulbs in the forest, > grocery stores and corner stores are nicer; Every thing comes in sooo much plastic, and the selection is very limited. Corner stores are all franchises of a few big players, who don't share much profit with local owners or suppliers. sure Fami-chikin is tasty, if you don't think about where it came from. > ostensibly unremarkable villages have more beautiful buildings and are more pleasant places to spend a few days.; Sure they are nice to "spend a few days". But a village is supposed to be the centre peoples lives. These nice villages with cool old buildings are emptying out fast and becoming abandoned along with the rural way of life because of the lack of immigrations and the economy being so centralised on Tokyo. It strikes me that all the writer's points are very much about what appeals to a middle class visitor. Is this a good metric to judge a society by?
mft_ 6y ago
Likewise, I find understanding why Switzerland is so successful very interesting – especially as it differs dramatically in approach from the other countries in Europe held up as successful and happy societies (the more northerly Nordic countries). I can’t give a full explanation, but there are a couple of unique aspects of Switzerland that I believe may influence the situation heavily: 1. A strong aspect of Swiss culture is to expect responsibility and interest in the affairs of Switzerland from its citizens. This is reflected, for example, in the very strict rules and tests implemented for foreigners wishing to assume Swiss citizenship, which include a wide variety of questions on the history and current affairs. 2. Allied to this, they have implemented probably the most direct form of democracy I’m aware of in the world. The country is divided into a number of cantons (roughly equivalent to American states) which are largely self governing and self determining, including (for example) setting dramatically different rates of taxation. Further, many issues are decided by way of referendum: votes take place relatively frequently. Lastly, in theory any citizen can generate a new law: a series of votes would be taken on a new suggestion, first at a local level, then at a cantonal level, and then potentially at the national level. Economically though one aspect I don’t understand is how Switzerland can support such high salaries and high costs of living, in contrast to other countries. (What came first: the high cost of living, or the high salaries?) And therefore with it being an acknowledged expensive place for businesses to operate (in terms of salary costs) why do multinational businesses choose to open or continue operations there, in contrast to other more affordable locations? (Also noting that there is significant skilled inward migration, to support the needs of some of those large businesses.)
- skrebbel 6y ago
  Non-expert armchair analysis: I always thought that the key reason Switzerland is richer than surrounding countries is their big financial sector + trickle down economics. And the financial sector got big because of their bank secrecy. Of course culture helps, but I'd wager that without the bank secrecy, they'd be a bigger Tyrol. Innsbruck is nice too but it doesn't lead every magazine's "best place to live in" list. A cynic might say that Switzerland got rich by helping criminals all over the world get away with their crimes. So Switzerland getting richer ties in with everybody else getting a little poorer (because crime is a tax on society). I think it's a foreign policy. A very cynical one, which says "we'll happily help other countries get worse, as long as we get better off it". It's not unlike America's offensive neorealism, but with money instead of guns.
james_s_tayler 6y ago
It's almost 100% cultural I feel. At least Japanese people always attribute it to their culture and self concept of what Japanese do / how Japanese (and therefore themselves) behave. If there are non-cultural factors I would think they contribute a fairly small amount. But there's a light side and a dark side to the cultural factors. It has some seemingly unavoidable side effects. Feels to me very much like a trade-off.
cdavid 6y ago
There is a culture of doing things very well up to perfection, at least in certain domains. I don't think it has anything to do with tourism. One folk story is that this is linked with the perpetual destruction of things in Japan, because of natural elements, etc. so there is an emphasis on controlling the process as most things tend to be short lived. You also need to be careful about cleanliness. If you go into more traditional areas, things tend to be quite messy. Japan's record in terms of pollution is not that great either. You need to live there for a while to start seeing the other side of the story on the social side. Social pressure is huge, starting from early age. Huge gender gap in almost every metric you can think of. People who do not conform are push out of the society very violently. For example, have you noticed how little you see intellectually disabled children ? Hint: it is not because Japanese are particularly immune to it. Also, why do young Japanese women all have black hair ? Hint, it is not because all Japanese woman have black hair. Etc. I love the country, the culture and the people, have lived there most of my adult life, but as in every culture, once you go beneath the surface, you see that it is a bit less bright than it appears. There is also a tendency from a certain faction of the Japanese society to believe in the uniqueness of Japan, called nihonjiron, a set of essentialist nonsense particularly popular on the extreme right for obvious reasons.
- wenc 6y ago
  > Also, why do young Japanese women all have black hair ? Hint, it is not because all Japanese woman have black hair. Etc. Curious what you mean by this? Most Asian people have naturally black hair. If anything, there was a period in the late 90s-2000s when most young Japanese people dyed their hair brown (it was a fashion fad), so if you saw an Asian person with brown hair, it was likely they were Japanese.
  - cdavid 6y ago
    I forgot to mention specifically in schools, which is where until last year every girl had to dye their hair black: https://japantoday.com/category/national/tokyo-public-schools-will-stop-forcing-students-to-dye-their-hair-black-official-promises https://japantoday.com/category/national/tokyo-public-school...

donw 6y ago

I live in Japan, and have for about a decade. You're bang-on when it comes to culture, but it has nothing to do with being optimized for tourism. Japan is a very conservative country. Change happens slowly here, and Japan does a lot to ensure that people raised here share a common culture, with a strong focus on stability and harmony. To provide some examples: - NHK, the national broadcaster, has several series of popular programs showing life across all of Japan -- rural, urban, suburban, every prefecture. There are also programs showing Japanese people living overseas, and showing how they have integrated into the local culture. There is no "rural vs urban" divide in Japan. - Japanese schools focus heavily on structure and responsibility. Students maintain their classrooms, clean their bathrooms, staff the cafeterias, etc. All of this is under adult supervision, but the kids do the actual work. Discipline is strong as well -- there are real consequences for poor behavior. - Japan follows the Prussian education model. Compulsory schooling ends at 14 (9th grade). From there, you can immediately begin working, go to a trade school, or go to high school. There is also a professional education track separate from university. - There is a strong culture around keeping families whole and raising kids as a whole family in Japan. Often the wife will move back home and live with her family shortly before and after childbirth, and there's a lot of cultural reinforcement there. - Parents are very active in the education of their children, and the locus of responsibility is first on the child, second on the parent. - The Koban system is fantastic. Police live in their communities, and interact with people every day. You never want to end up on the wrong side of the law -- the conviction rate is well north of 90%, and the accused have very few rights here -- but overall, Japanese police are very polite and professional. There are downsides to this -- everything comes with trade-offs -- but it delivers a very stable and safe society.

actuator 6y ago
Few questions, would be glad if anyone can answer these: - Would you know of good companies which have a good work life balance in Japan? - I know among the big tech, Microsoft and Google have offices there. Both seem to pay well as well. Do they have similar WLB as their US offices? - I have heard of racism, like certain apartments being off limits for non Japanese people. Some clubs only allowing white caucasians among foreigners. How true is this in your experience? - I have no problem in learning Japanese over time, but without it at the start, is it very difficult to get by? - Do most people live in Tokyo/Kyoto(where Tech companies seem to be) itself or can you live a bit in outskirts(a bit of greenery) and commute using the fast public transport?
- donw 6y ago
  Of course. :) I'm not sure "work-life balance" is even the right concept in Japan. Japanese companies are structured around the idea that you devote your life to the organization. Overtime and weekend work are common. In exchange, the company will take care of you: you will never be fired, you will be provided with access to a broad social network, a group of friends, a spouse should you desire, and enough salary for your station in life until you reach retirement. If you are satisfied with that contract, you will be happy. If not, you won't. Working for a big US-based tech company here, you get the best-ish of both worlds. Salaries are much higher -- although not on par with the US -- and your working environment will be much more familiar. The downside is that you are very insulated from Japanese society as a whole. The "Gaijin Bubble" is a thing, and it's incredibly hard to break out of. One of my buddies -- who "happens to be black" as George Carlin would say -- describes Japanese racism as "racism done right". I'd say I agree with his assessment. I've been denied apartments, had an ex whose family hated foreigners, and been refused entry to a restaurant once, but that's all fairly uncommon. You are unlikely to experience violence, although the police will -- very politely -- pay more attention to you than they would natives. Tokyoites are used to foreigners, and outside of that, you're a curiosity? Also, speaking Japanese opens many doors. I once had a nightmare of a time getting a taxi, but they would stop to pick up Japanese people. Once I finally flagged one down, I asked the driver why. He was thrilled that I spoke Japanese, and mentioned that, in that area, most foreigners (a) couldn't speak the language; (b) wanted a long taxi ride; and (c) often fought with the drivers and refused to pay (taxis are not cheap here). Remote work is a thing now, but before that, you lived in Tokyo. You can easily live in a bedroom community and commute -- some people do 4+ hours per day on a shinkansen. On the off chance that I do stay here, I will likely move to a semi-rural area and telecommute full time. Your company (nominally) pays your commuting costs. Japanese is straightforward to learn, but you really have to devote time to it. Plan a few years of total immersion. Also, it's not a European language, so outside of the grammatical differences, there's just a ton of culture where there is no overlap -- I didn't really appreciate just how deep Christianity's roots were in Europe until moving here -- it's crazy. As a tiny example, the little grill that you cook "Ghengis Khan" on is called a "shichirin" -- which is a specifically-shaped wheel from Buddhist teachings.

icelancer 6y ago

...have you considered that things are much nicer there but at great cost to the sections of people they consider "not nice?" Especially in Japan?

verroq 6y ago
Good. A country should foremost look after its own people. Worry about foreigners (gaijin) later.
- vore 6y ago
  I don't think the parent comment was alluding to only foreigners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi is one of the unfortunate social phenomena that's notable in Japan from the culture and the pressure of conformity.
- mef 6y ago
  _Gaijin_ is commonly used for non-Asian foreigner. Take a look at how citizens of non-Japanese heritage are treated if you want to understand what the parent comment is referring to. For example, Korean or Chinese heritage Japanese, or Ainu (indigenous Japanese)
  - verroq 6y ago
    They are pretty xenophobic, if you are Chinese or worse Korean you might as well be a gaijin.
  - icelancer 6y ago
    Ha, or worse, Japanese-American.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

andrewstuart 6y ago

I visited Japan and was just astounded at how much better the society is run. As a tourist, my obviously naive impression was of a place that is incredibly well organised, that seems to have no trouble investing in its own infrastructure, that is extremely safe and clean and generally prosperous. Where the people seem to have a sense of joy and fun. Just. so. well. organised. I really loved Japan. My favorite country in so many ways. I really wish I'd visited when younger and maybe lived there for a while. I did feel unsafe and threatened during my trip there at one point when an Australian tourist became belligerent and angry when someone (not Japanese of course) stepped ahead of him in a queue. I felt ashamed at his behavior.

drcode 6y ago
I agree Japan is awesome (visited twice) but let's not overlook this: https://www.businessinsider.com/world-suicide-rate-map-2014-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/world-suicide-rate-map-2014-...
- ncmncm 6y ago
  ...or that hundreds of Tokyo buildings will collapse in the next big earthquake? Or have they been fixed, since we learned about it? If so, how?
  - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
    Could ask the same about SF, LA, maybe Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver and really anything in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone I'd trust the Japanese more in anything related to earthquake proof building, in spite of their little fuck-up with Fukushima. At the end of the day, no matter where and when you are, it's your mandatory share of risk in the lottery of life. Deal with it.
    - ncmncm 6y ago
      The recent claim (maybe 10 ya) was that Yakuza influence forced inspectors to sign off on foundations that were not sound. So they do not have the required pilings. I don't know how that could be fixed, but I don't assert it couldn't be. I assume if it is, it would have been done by now.

verroq 6y ago

Ethno states with shared culture and little internal division due to racial tensions tend to run quite well. See: China, Korea, Norway, Denmark, Czech republic

bawolff 6y ago
Counterpoint: North Korea.
- actuator 6y ago
  I am sometimes baffled at how the leaders at NK can't have a look at just down the DMZ and see what they could have. The difference in social indicators is magnitudes better. Their ideology has been proven so wrong. I wonder what will take them to just give up. If they are worried about punishments for what they have done, they could just cut a deal to let them have a lot of assets and be immune from judgement against past crimes.
  - bawolff 6y ago
    I'm sure the leaders enjoy their position in north korea quite a lot. Better to be a king in somewhere like North Korea than to be an ordinary person somewhere else.
    - actuator 6y ago
      Could end up as a rich real estate mogul though as a unification condition. Still a decent deal. Probably have to be at that position to understand that rationale I guess, right now it just seems heartless.
    - geofft 6y ago
      Really? I mean, think of the story of Boris Yeltsin visiting a grocery store. Is the life of the average North Korean government official actually better than my life as an SRE in Brooklyn? I think I have way more access to luxuries than they do.
- 6y ago

ffggvv 6y ago

why can’t you just attribute it to culture? it’s clearly that

nemothekid 6y ago
You can, but it looks like everyone else in this thread is lazer focused on Japan (likely due to the prestige of Japanese culture). But that doesn't explain Switzerland. Is Switzerland closer to Japanese in culture than they are to Dutch? I think obviously not, but from the thread you would assume otherwsie.
- deleted 6y ago
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- badestrand 6y ago
  Both countries (Switzerland and Japan) have a culture of a focus on quality, so they are very close in this trait. The Dutch are IMO very pragmatic people that, while quality is important to them, are more willing to sacrifice it for other things that are of higher priority. So it's not about a general sharing of culture but only about sharing the quality-focus aspect.
  - Robin_Message 6y ago
    I had a colleague who insisted on quality in every bit of our software and the results were similar perhaps: locally, each thing might take more time and more care, but the global result was everything working better and being done more easily. So perhaps focusing in quality and assuming efficiency will come from global effects is a good strategy? (Reminds me also of The score takes care of itself business book)

kevindong 6y ago

I've only been to Switzerland once and that was during a <2 hour layover in the Zurich airport. As an American used to frequently decrepit American airports/infrastructure, I was seriously shocked at how nice the entire airport was. The aesthetic of the airport was just quintessentially Swiss (aka beautifully minimalistic). When I pay for something with an American credit card in Europe, the machine prints out a receipt for me to sign. I was buying a snack at a store in the Zurich airport and the clerk actually compared the signature on the back of my card to the signature that I scrawled on the receipt. That was the one and only time I've ever had someone do that. I generally don't put any effort into those signatures so my signature looked nothing like what was on the back of my card so the clerk actually asked me to try again.

ghaff 6y ago
So they have an archaic system that requires comparing a signature? I'm pretty sure I couldn't match my credit card unless I were trying to do it while looking at the card signature. I hardly consider that a benefit. And I've been through Zurich. I don't consider it anything special better or worse than going through most major European or American airports. [Oh. I take that back. I had my luggage lost on the way there by SwissAir and it was a nightmare finding who to talk to.]
- hirsin 6y ago
  They did that because they were unfamiliar with a system that requires such a check. Every time I've been to Europe and used an American card it's been explained to me that because American cards are so far behind the times they need to specially handle my card instead of using Chip and PIN
- deleted 6y ago
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- graeme 6y ago
  You perhaps didn’t go through the terminal for international transiting connections (terminal E?) It is fantastic. Just about the best airport experience I’ve had. Easy to get from one point to another, nice lounges if you have access, and outdoor viewing decks. The rest of the airport is just so so. And it’s confusing to get from one terminal to the next. But terminal E is a marvel. Airports actually have internationally established minimum connection times for flights, based on how long transit is expected to be. Zurich’s is among the lowest. The other comment covered the credit card issue so I won’t address that part.

tempsy 6y ago

homogenous societies are inherently more efficient? the reality is the beauty of America is that we are a heterogeneous one, but there are of course some downsides to that.

082349872349872 6y ago
Considering that I use at least four languages[1] every day, and am thankful[2] to be living someplace that has not yet been completely overrun by chains and big box stores, I'd argue the assertion of a "heterogenous" US might need defending. On the original question: I think switzerland is nice for two reasons. (a) we didn't blow ourselves up twice last century, which meant that even with little absolute growth we went from being a relatively poor european country to a relatively rich one, and (b) putting more emphasis on quality of life than on hustle results in, well, more quality of life. [1] It doesn't work for francophones, who have a general swiss (or at best cantonal) idiom, but in swiss-german there are several isoglosses just within my valley that allow me to place a speaker. Granted, my valley has been historically universally catholic, but these days that just means that our protestants and muslims get lumped together in the "not christian" bucket :-) [2] a french friend put it this way, earlier this century: "Modern europeans are too busy feeling sorry for those poor benighted savages who had the misfortune to be born a few villages over, to bother travelling halfway around the world to bring their superior way of life to people at gunpoint." À mon avis, c pas faux.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  In the city I grew up in, official notices were routinely made in English, Spanish, and Vietnamese, and I regularly encountered people speaking Korean and Chinese as well. Even my grandma's rural town, with a population of under 5,000 and an hour's drive to the closest city, has people and restaurants representing four or five different nationalities. If you're perceiving the US as a country where everyone only speaks English and only eats at McDonalds, that's not accurate.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago

ta1234567890 6y ago

> What are the non-cultural factors which contribute to this phenomenon It's simply impossible to detach Japan from their culture. The main thing that stands out to me is their selflessness. One anectdata: Tokyo feels pretty much the opposite of NYC. In NYC it feels like people are obstacles to avoid on the way to where you are going. Nobody waits for anybody. At first it seems rude, then you realize "it's not personal" and just assume the same stance. It's ok to quickly walk in front of someone who's not paying attention, it's ok to not say hi and just quickly ask what they want. You end up thinking a city that big and with so many people can only be that way. Then you go to Japan and are completely blown away. Everybody is aware of everyone else on the street, even if it's packed people will give you the right of way, they'll wait for you if you are distracted, they'll stop and try to help you if you seem lost, and seemingly everywhere people will be super polite. To me the difference is that in NY (and maybe the US in general), I'm always first and most important, whereas in Tokyo (and probably Japan in general), everyone is more important than just myself. Two small stories about Japan: 1) a friend was trying to find a place to exchange some USD and got a bit lost, he asked a random person about it, this person walked my friend for 3 blocks to the currency exchange shop. 2) when going through a bus station in Tokyo, one of the escalators was closed for cleaning, when I walked by, the janitor was laying down flat on the floor, holding a special brush, meticulously cleaning the yellow metal mat at the entrance of the escalator, completely absorbed in what he was doing. I've never seen anyone, anywhere else in the world, put so much care into cleaning a public space.

keiferski 6y ago
> a friend was trying to find a place to exchange some USD and got a bit lost, he asked a random person about it, this person walked my friend for 3 blocks to the currency exchange shop. This exact same thing happened to me. Two anecdotes don't make a pattern, but...Japan does have a magnificent culture of service.
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  It's not service in the sense that is commonly used. They're not "serving" you by helping you. It's more of a "helping me by helping us" attitude, I think. The UK used to have this level of awareness of others, and almost this level of politeness. One of the complaints about American tourists was that they were so rude. I still find walking in a British city a pleasure (but not London, as it has lost this), because people are aware of everyone else around them, and make space for them. I find the same driving in the UK (but not London) - drivers co-operate together to keep the traffic going smoothly. People regularly let others in front of them, knowing that someone else will let them through in turn. Walking in an Australian city is a nightmare by comparison - everyone is ignorant of others around them and annoyed if they have to alter their path at all. Driving is even worse. Australian drivers are incapable of merging at a junction because they point-blank refuse to let other people in front of them. Every other car is an obstacle to be got around, a competitor that needs to be "beaten" rather than co-operated with.

calinet6 6y ago

Appreciation of systems. Continuous improvement, and respect for people. They are closer to this reality than most societies. It shows. Yet, they are not without problems, which are inextricably linked to the same culture. There are still tradeoffs.

totetsu 6y ago

As a Japan resident and expat from a small south pacific nation you may of heard of recently, I don't find Japanese "baseline execution quality" to be categorically better. There are a lot of places where it is worse. > Buses and trains are better (and more punctual); Japan's public transport is great.(where there is money) > low-end food is tastier; 50/50 on this. Maybe gyudon or kaiten-zushi are tasty, but a lot of the low end food is over processed, over packaged, over sweetened, uninspired imitations of food, factory made, prepared by low wage workers, with all the challenging and exciting bits take out. > cheap hotels are more comfortable; you even get complimentary right wing nationalist literature in the bedside table.. but This is probably true. > streets are cleaner; People just throw things where no one can see, when no one is looking. They neatly tie up their convenience store rubbish in its plastic bag, and throw it into a stream. dump their fireworks and BBQS on the beach, fluorescent lightbulbs in the forest, > grocery stores and corner stores are nicer; Every thing comes in sooo much plastic, and the selection is very limited. Corner stores are all franchises of a few big players, who don't share much profit with local owners or suppliers. sure Fami-chikin is tasty, if you don't think about where it came from. > ostensibly unremarkable villages have more beautiful buildings and are more pleasant places to spend a few days.; Sure they are nice to "spend a few days". But a village is supposed to be the centre peoples lives. These nice villages with cool old buildings are emptying out fast and becoming abandoned along with the rural way of life because of the lack of immigrations and the economy being so centralised on Tokyo. It strikes me that all the writer's points are very much about what appeals to a middle class visitor. Is this a good metric to judge a society by?

mft_ 6y ago

Likewise, I find understanding why Switzerland is so successful very interesting – especially as it differs dramatically in approach from the other countries in Europe held up as successful and happy societies (the more northerly Nordic countries). I can’t give a full explanation, but there are a couple of unique aspects of Switzerland that I believe may influence the situation heavily: 1. A strong aspect of Swiss culture is to expect responsibility and interest in the affairs of Switzerland from its citizens. This is reflected, for example, in the very strict rules and tests implemented for foreigners wishing to assume Swiss citizenship, which include a wide variety of questions on the history and current affairs. 2. Allied to this, they have implemented probably the most direct form of democracy I’m aware of in the world. The country is divided into a number of cantons (roughly equivalent to American states) which are largely self governing and self determining, including (for example) setting dramatically different rates of taxation. Further, many issues are decided by way of referendum: votes take place relatively frequently. Lastly, in theory any citizen can generate a new law: a series of votes would be taken on a new suggestion, first at a local level, then at a cantonal level, and then potentially at the national level. Economically though one aspect I don’t understand is how Switzerland can support such high salaries and high costs of living, in contrast to other countries. (What came first: the high cost of living, or the high salaries?) And therefore with it being an acknowledged expensive place for businesses to operate (in terms of salary costs) why do multinational businesses choose to open or continue operations there, in contrast to other more affordable locations? (Also noting that there is significant skilled inward migration, to support the needs of some of those large businesses.)

skrebbel 6y ago
Non-expert armchair analysis: I always thought that the key reason Switzerland is richer than surrounding countries is their big financial sector + trickle down economics. And the financial sector got big because of their bank secrecy. Of course culture helps, but I'd wager that without the bank secrecy, they'd be a bigger Tyrol. Innsbruck is nice too but it doesn't lead every magazine's "best place to live in" list. A cynic might say that Switzerland got rich by helping criminals all over the world get away with their crimes. So Switzerland getting richer ties in with everybody else getting a little poorer (because crime is a tax on society). I think it's a foreign policy. A very cynical one, which says "we'll happily help other countries get worse, as long as we get better off it". It's not unlike America's offensive neorealism, but with money instead of guns.

james_s_tayler 6y ago

It's almost 100% cultural I feel. At least Japanese people always attribute it to their culture and self concept of what Japanese do / how Japanese (and therefore themselves) behave. If there are non-cultural factors I would think they contribute a fairly small amount. But there's a light side and a dark side to the cultural factors. It has some seemingly unavoidable side effects. Feels to me very much like a trade-off.

cdavid 6y ago

There is a culture of doing things very well up to perfection, at least in certain domains. I don't think it has anything to do with tourism. One folk story is that this is linked with the perpetual destruction of things in Japan, because of natural elements, etc. so there is an emphasis on controlling the process as most things tend to be short lived. You also need to be careful about cleanliness. If you go into more traditional areas, things tend to be quite messy. Japan's record in terms of pollution is not that great either. You need to live there for a while to start seeing the other side of the story on the social side. Social pressure is huge, starting from early age. Huge gender gap in almost every metric you can think of. People who do not conform are push out of the society very violently. For example, have you noticed how little you see intellectually disabled children ? Hint: it is not because Japanese are particularly immune to it. Also, why do young Japanese women all have black hair ? Hint, it is not because all Japanese woman have black hair. Etc. I love the country, the culture and the people, have lived there most of my adult life, but as in every culture, once you go beneath the surface, you see that it is a bit less bright than it appears. There is also a tendency from a certain faction of the Japanese society to believe in the uniqueness of Japan, called nihonjiron, a set of essentialist nonsense particularly popular on the extreme right for obvious reasons.

wenc 6y ago
> Also, why do young Japanese women all have black hair ? Hint, it is not because all Japanese woman have black hair. Etc. Curious what you mean by this? Most Asian people have naturally black hair. If anything, there was a period in the late 90s-2000s when most young Japanese people dyed their hair brown (it was a fashion fad), so if you saw an Asian person with brown hair, it was likely they were Japanese.
- cdavid 6y ago
  I forgot to mention specifically in schools, which is where until last year every girl had to dye their hair black: https://japantoday.com/category/national/tokyo-public-schools-will-stop-forcing-students-to-dye-their-hair-black-official-promises https://japantoday.com/category/national/tokyo-public-school...