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Pretty much everywhere in the world, paramedics are allowed to inject sedatives when treating a patient. Ketamine is used in many places (the US, UK, Canada, Au

Pretty much everywhere in the world, paramedics are allowed to inject sedatives when treating a patient. Ketamine is used in many places (the US, UK, Canada, Australia, Austria) by paramedics, because it is very safe relative to other sedatives. So the main concern should whether or not police are ordering EMS to administer it when it is not actually required (police do not administer it themselves), since I don't think administering it after an arrest should be an issue if it is actually required. The article doesn't really give much evidence that this actually happens very frequently. The main piece of evidence is this: In Minneapolis, a report conducted by the Office of Police Conduct Review found eight of those cases between 2016 and 2018, ranging from officers requesting paramedics use the drug to emergency medical workers asking officers for their opinions on sedating someone. 8 cases across three years in one city, where some of those cases were just paramedics asking for a second opinion, does not seem to indicate a very widespread issue across the US, especially when the city being investigated is know to have a bad police department.

corty 6y ago
Paramedics here are only allowed to do so if a doctor is not available and there is an emergency waranting using medication. After giving such medication, close monitoring and hospitalisation is mandatory, except if the physician arrives in time and releases the patient (which is very rare in such circumstances). The article never talks about a doctor arriving, an EKG, hospitalisation or any other appropriate measures, from which I conclude that there were none. Which is unconsciable, ketamine isn't "just an aspirin".
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
quadrifoliate 6y ago
8 cases across three years in one city, where some of those cases were just paramedics asking for a second opinion, does not seem to indicate a very widespread issue across the US, especially when the city being investigated is know to have a bad police department. First of all, it's a big jump from "the article only mentions 8 cases across the US" to "there were only 8 cases across the US". The case of Elijah McClain, for instance, is in Denver. And the issue seems to be one of cruel and unusual punishment. At least in the US, people expect the police to use and carry guns. They don't expect them to order paramedics to inject you with weird sedatives when you're under restraint, and especially not to make broadly reasonable decisions while doing so. Look at the McClain case, he was 140 pounds with six officers restraining him, and they needed to inject ketamine? I wouldn't blame the paramedics for miscalculating the weight, they probably thought this was some enormous muscular man that six police officers couldn't hold down.
- Stupulous 6y ago
  I agree that this is something that should never happen at all, but you're hyperbolizing the parent's statement. They didn't say there are only 8 cases in the US, they said it's uncommon. Taking Minneapolis as an average (parent believes they are worse than average), it happens to .00063% of the population there per year or 1890 Americans per year. I'm having trouble finding the arrest rate in Minneapolis, which would help get to a more accurate estimate.
  - luckydata 6y ago
    It shouldn’t happen at all. The amount of people ok with “a little dystopian policing” is disturbing to me.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      What do you feel should happen, then, in the rare cases where medical personnel need to treat someone who's uncontrollably violent? Police on their own can be (and are) trained to just physically restrain the guy indefinitely, but paramedics can't treat someone if they're thrashing around. (I agree it'd be dystopian if police were themselves carrying around sedatives, but that's not happening here.)
- Natsu 6y ago
  > First of all, it's a big jump from "the article only mentions 8 cases across the US" to "there were only 8 cases across the US". The parent does not make that jump, it merely cites 8 cases over 3 years in one city and asks if there isn't more evidence. And that does not even allege police directing paramedics to do things (as claimed in another thread here), just people discussing the situation with each other.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
sesuximo 6y ago
The article says that 17% of uses in Colorado lead to complications. —- Also, I googled “Canada” and “Australia” alone with “Ketamine” “police” and got nothing. Can you support your claim that other countries do this?
- dylan604 6y ago
  > Ketamine is used in many places (the US, UK, Canada, Australia, Austria) by paramedics, The original claim did not say anything about police. You interjected police. However, I searched for "australia paramedics using ketamine" in DDG. The first page was nothing but pages regarding Colorado. Page 2 returned a more relevant study of Australian paramedics using Special-K[0]. I then searched "canadian paramedics using ketamine", and again first page totally about CO with page 2 yielding relevant results[1]. [0] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1742-6723.12685 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1742-6723.12... [1] https://ajp.paramedics.org/index.php/ajp/article/view/763 https://ajp.paramedics.org/index.php/ajp/article/view/763 Original claim seems accurate.
  - sesuximo 6y ago
    I guess that makes sense. However, it seems like perhaps the interjection is paramedics since the top level article is about police (mid)use of k.
specialist 6y ago
"...paramedics are allowed to inject sedatives when treating a patient." Firstly, eliminate qualified immunity in the USA. Until everyone can be held accountable for their actions, this convo is moot.
nocturnial 6y ago
> Pretty much everywhere in the world, paramedics are allowed to inject sedatives when treating a patient. I don't know how you define pretty much everywhere, but in the EU it's illegal pretty much everywhere. [0] I know in practice those laws get ignored, but, as a paramedic or doctor, you could get into trouble if someone decides to sue over it. The reality is that the law isn't on your side on this issue. [0] https://webgate.ec.europa.eu/chafea_pdb/assets/files/pdb/2007117/2007117_patients_rights.pdf https://webgate.ec.europa.eu/chafea_pdb/assets/files/pdb/200...
voxic11 6y ago
If you want the evidence that this happens frequently read the MPD civilian oversight report[0] on the subject. In my opinion the main issue is the "excited delirium" diagnosis. One of the main symptoms of "excited delirium" is "Police Noncompliance"[1] which makes the police an essential part of its diagnosis. [0] https://lims.minneapolismn.gov/Download/File/1853/Pre-Hospital%20Sedation%20Report%20Revised%2011-20-2018.pdf https://lims.minneapolismn.gov/Download/File/1853/Pre-Hospit... [1] https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/media/publications/acep_report_on_excited_delirium_syndrome_sept_2009.pdf https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/media/publications/acep_repo...

corty 6y ago

Paramedics here are only allowed to do so if a doctor is not available and there is an emergency waranting using medication. After giving such medication, close monitoring and hospitalisation is mandatory, except if the physician arrives in time and releases the patient (which is very rare in such circumstances). The article never talks about a doctor arriving, an EKG, hospitalisation or any other appropriate measures, from which I conclude that there were none. Which is unconsciable, ketamine isn't "just an aspirin".

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

quadrifoliate 6y ago

8 cases across three years in one city, where some of those cases were just paramedics asking for a second opinion, does not seem to indicate a very widespread issue across the US, especially when the city being investigated is know to have a bad police department. First of all, it's a big jump from "the article only mentions 8 cases across the US" to "there were only 8 cases across the US". The case of Elijah McClain, for instance, is in Denver. And the issue seems to be one of cruel and unusual punishment. At least in the US, people expect the police to use and carry guns. They don't expect them to order paramedics to inject you with weird sedatives when you're under restraint, and especially not to make broadly reasonable decisions while doing so. Look at the McClain case, he was 140 pounds with six officers restraining him, and they needed to inject ketamine? I wouldn't blame the paramedics for miscalculating the weight, they probably thought this was some enormous muscular man that six police officers couldn't hold down.

Stupulous 6y ago
I agree that this is something that should never happen at all, but you're hyperbolizing the parent's statement. They didn't say there are only 8 cases in the US, they said it's uncommon. Taking Minneapolis as an average (parent believes they are worse than average), it happens to .00063% of the population there per year or 1890 Americans per year. I'm having trouble finding the arrest rate in Minneapolis, which would help get to a more accurate estimate.
- luckydata 6y ago
  It shouldn’t happen at all. The amount of people ok with “a little dystopian policing” is disturbing to me.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    What do you feel should happen, then, in the rare cases where medical personnel need to treat someone who's uncontrollably violent? Police on their own can be (and are) trained to just physically restrain the guy indefinitely, but paramedics can't treat someone if they're thrashing around. (I agree it'd be dystopian if police were themselves carrying around sedatives, but that's not happening here.)
Natsu 6y ago
> First of all, it's a big jump from "the article only mentions 8 cases across the US" to "there were only 8 cases across the US". The parent does not make that jump, it merely cites 8 cases over 3 years in one city and asks if there isn't more evidence. And that does not even allege police directing paramedics to do things (as claimed in another thread here), just people discussing the situation with each other.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

sesuximo 6y ago

The article says that 17% of uses in Colorado lead to complications. —- Also, I googled “Canada” and “Australia” alone with “Ketamine” “police” and got nothing. Can you support your claim that other countries do this?

dylan604 6y ago
> Ketamine is used in many places (the US, UK, Canada, Australia, Austria) by paramedics, The original claim did not say anything about police. You interjected police. However, I searched for "australia paramedics using ketamine" in DDG. The first page was nothing but pages regarding Colorado. Page 2 returned a more relevant study of Australian paramedics using Special-K[0]. I then searched "canadian paramedics using ketamine", and again first page totally about CO with page 2 yielding relevant results[1]. [0] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1742-6723.12685 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1742-6723.12... [1] https://ajp.paramedics.org/index.php/ajp/article/view/763 https://ajp.paramedics.org/index.php/ajp/article/view/763 Original claim seems accurate.
- sesuximo 6y ago
  I guess that makes sense. However, it seems like perhaps the interjection is paramedics since the top level article is about police (mid)use of k.

specialist 6y ago

"...paramedics are allowed to inject sedatives when treating a patient." Firstly, eliminate qualified immunity in the USA. Until everyone can be held accountable for their actions, this convo is moot.

nocturnial 6y ago

> Pretty much everywhere in the world, paramedics are allowed to inject sedatives when treating a patient. I don't know how you define pretty much everywhere, but in the EU it's illegal pretty much everywhere. [0] I know in practice those laws get ignored, but, as a paramedic or doctor, you could get into trouble if someone decides to sue over it. The reality is that the law isn't on your side on this issue. [0] https://webgate.ec.europa.eu/chafea_pdb/assets/files/pdb/2007117/2007117_patients_rights.pdf https://webgate.ec.europa.eu/chafea_pdb/assets/files/pdb/200...

voxic11 6y ago

If you want the evidence that this happens frequently read the MPD civilian oversight report[0] on the subject. In my opinion the main issue is the "excited delirium" diagnosis. One of the main symptoms of "excited delirium" is "Police Noncompliance"[1] which makes the police an essential part of its diagnosis. [0] https://lims.minneapolismn.gov/Download/File/1853/Pre-Hospital%20Sedation%20Report%20Revised%2011-20-2018.pdf https://lims.minneapolismn.gov/Download/File/1853/Pre-Hospit... [1] https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/media/publications/acep_report_on_excited_delirium_syndrome_sept_2009.pdf https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/media/publications/acep_repo...