5 ms·

Alcohol and ketamine is a known bad bad combination. 500mg is a damn lot of ketamine and morally there is no difference than drugging someone against their will

Alcohol and ketamine is a known bad bad combination. 500mg is a damn lot of ketamine and morally there is no difference than drugging someone against their will by non medical people for no medical purpose.

burfog 6y ago
Cops also use pepper spray. It's against someone's will, by non-cooks, for no culinary purpose. Cops also use electric stun guns. It's against someone's will, by non-electricians, for no electronic purpose. Mind proposing an acceptable method of restraint? Go ahead, and see people tear it apart as a human rights violation. It's much like the hopeless situation in bad schools, where all possible methods of discipline have been banned. Things are a mess if we deny the need to impose proper behavior by force.
- dividedbyzero 6y ago
  And cops use bullets, too. Soldiers use even better bullets, and these are a super effective method of disciplining people with great longterm success in reducing repeat offenders. But the cost on the detainee (who is to be presumed innocent, who may be in distress themself, who may have a psychotic episode due to some unknown cross-reaction with medication or the like, who may be deeply scared) is much, much, much higher, which is why this sort of thing almost never happens where I live (not the US, obviously). I feel there are good reasons to assume that force-injecting someone with a megadose of Ketamine without their knowing what they're getting, understanding what they're getting into, competent assistance during what follows, in a profoundly bad state of mind, likely in deep fear, under heavy stress, while being restrained (otherwise, how would you inject?), with no knowlegde of their medical history or current condition, administered by laypeople, who would be completely useless in case of complications – I believe that isn't quite the same as tasing someone, or using pepper spray. While it's not visible in the way beating injuries are, that sort of thing has big potential to really deeply traumatize and mentally scar people for a long time. Cops here do not have such powers and no one has tried to give them such powers, so far; I hope it stays that way. If someone has to be sedated, a doctor and an ambulance have to be summoned, and the then-patient has to be brought directly to a clinic that can take care of them; all in a medical setting from that point, not primarily an arrest (though, of course, depending on the situation, they may not be allowed to just leave once they're lucid again). This is only ever to be done in case of people in a psychotic episode that cannot be calmed otherwise or the like, it's not something to put into annoying detainees to make them shut up and be easier to handle. Any emergency doctor willing to inject such drugs without proper medical indication would take on big personal risks. And, finally: > Things are a mess if we deny the need to impose proper behavior by force. Things are a mess as well if the tools to do so are passed out without checks and safety mechanisms that are appropriate to their effects. Letting cops shoot people at will while there are other, less severe options, that's awfully bad. And letting them drug people into submission while there are other, less severe options, that too is really bad.
  - throwawayWSQA 6y ago
    1. "Soldiers use even better bullets" Almost universally not true. The Geneva convention prohibits many types of bullets that are allowed for civilian use. Hollow points, for example. And there are good reasons why they're allowed for civilians and not war. 2. It's not fair to give us a sanctimonious lecture about how great your country's police procedures are without stating your country. Put up, or drop the lecture. I mean, imagine the chutzpah if you're German!
    - dividedbyzero 6y ago
      I believe soldiers have bullets with a lot more kinetic energy behind them than bullets fired by ordinary police guns; that said, I'm not a gun person, so maybe a police small arms shot is more effective against people than one fired by an assault rifle. Besides, the policy I described is what (AFAIK) most of Europe implements at the moment (might be all of Europe even), including Germany. I don't quite see why stating that requires chutzpah. That wasn't intended as a sanctimonious lecture at all, but since there already is a lot of "nothing less drastic could ever work" in the comments, I thought I'd give an example of another policy that works well. I'm well aware there is no police force or security apparatus without fault, they all get some things wrong (and some are outright atrocious, like in Belarus currently), not trying to make it sound like some EU police service is perfect. I don't know where the US police falls on that spectrum, though reading US news makes it seem like they do have some serious issues currently. This particular policy doesn't exactly help, either.
      - throwawayWSQA 6y ago
        "I don't know where the US police falls on that spectrum, though reading US news makes it seem like they do have some serious issues currently. " Well that's the problem, isn't it? You read news coverage of the US. The observational bias there is huge. Consider: The US is a country of 320 million. As of Brexit, larger than the EU and homogeneously English speaking with homogeneous press and institutions. The EU is smaller with 23 languages or so and a patchwork of everything. So if a Eastern EU cop beats the shit out of a homosexual in jail who would ever find out? At least in Greece it's pretty well documented that cops sodomized Albanian migrant workers with broomsticks. But you wouldn't know that unless you happen to have an Albanian wife who lived in Greece. An Italian squad of carabinieri was just disbanded because it turned out to be running a drug dealing and extortion racket. This is literally current news. Have you heard about it? Spanish police took COVID as an opportunity to abuse their power. National scandal in Spain, I haven't read any non-Spanish (and I mean Spain Spanish, not Spanish language) news about it. In Hesse police computers were used to find out the personal details of a left-wing politician to send them neo-Nazi affiliated threats. Armed agents of the Germany with neo-Nazi links is quite the scandal today in Germany. Notice the bias in my examples: Spanish police - I'm half Spanish Italian police - I'm half Italian Greek police - My wife is Greek speaking Albanian. German police - I suspect you're German so I specifically googled German police abuse Notice I don't have specific French police abuse examples... because I don't speak French! I'm sure a google search will quickly inform me of Algerians young men beat to a pulp by a gendarme. In general, as EU citizen living in the US for over a decade, I find that the EU perspective of the US couldn't be more wrong. [EDIT] grammer
- scarface74 6y ago
  But surprisingly, even in “good schools”, when the same offense happens by minorities vs. non minorities, it is criminalized when done by minorities. I was amazed at the stories my son told me about kids getting caught with drugs, hitting a coach, vandalizing property and all that happened was that the parents got called and a few days of suspension and the police were never involved. Because “kids will be kids”. Of course this is in a high income district. When I was previously married living in a predominantly minority neighborhood - great neighborhood, lower income minority school district - my step daughter would tell me about the even the most minor of offenses where administrators would get the police involved. There have been plenty of studies showing the unequal treatment of Black and White kids.
  - burfog 6y ago
    That's a different school, run by different people. It does not prohibit attendance by students of any race. The only bias I see is that of the parents, who pay a housing premium to avoid being associated with some kinds of people. The local people choose the school board, which then chooses the school policy and administration. School policy is limited by what is allowed and by what seems to work. If the parents usually are quick to discipline students for misbehavior, then parents will be relied upon to do so. If the parents ignore or encourage misbehavior, there is no reason to involve them. The police will be called instead.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      No, same district. Different punishment. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/09/03/police-punitive-policies-make-schools-less-safe-especially-minority-students/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/09/03/police-pun...
      - burfog 6y ago
        Still, you elected a school board that would permit that difference, and you chose where to live. If telling parents gets students under control at one school, and it doesn't work at the other school, punishment will be different. You could get to that policy by trial and error, without any knowledge of the racial makeup of the student body.
- antris 6y ago
  Can you give us examples of cases where the police are running out of legal options in their use of force?
- jessaustin 6y ago
  They're not injecting this with tranq darts. Someone who is restrained enough to inject with a syringe, is already restrained enough. Probably with handcuffs/leg-irons/etc., but some cops also like to kneel on necks.
- GordonS 6y ago
  There is another method you neglected to mention: deescalation. From all I've seen of US law enforcement, this seems to be applied very seldom, with cops actively escalating the situation and quickly reaching for tools of violence (beatings, batons, pepper spray, tasers, guns). Most (all?) of the rest of the western world doesn't have these issues to anywhere near the degree the US does. Nobody in their right mind outside of the US would be justifying injecting people with massive doses of disassociative drugs, yet some people in the US think this is OK. That kind of says it all, really.
collyw 6y ago
If someone is waving a knife or gun about and is a danger to others, I would say there is a moral difference. I am assuming that the police use it mainly for cases like that, but that is just an assumption. It still seems better than shooting at them. The linked article doesn't say anything like that though, but it is quite low on details leading to the arrest.
- scaryclam 6y ago
  If someone is waving a weapon around I really doubt the police are getting near enough to inject drugs. There seems to be zero good reason for the use of this.
- learc83 6y ago
  A paramedic isn’t going anywhere near a person waving a gun or a knife to inject them. This is only for people who are already restrained.

burfog 6y ago

Cops also use pepper spray. It's against someone's will, by non-cooks, for no culinary purpose. Cops also use electric stun guns. It's against someone's will, by non-electricians, for no electronic purpose. Mind proposing an acceptable method of restraint? Go ahead, and see people tear it apart as a human rights violation. It's much like the hopeless situation in bad schools, where all possible methods of discipline have been banned. Things are a mess if we deny the need to impose proper behavior by force.

dividedbyzero 6y ago
And cops use bullets, too. Soldiers use even better bullets, and these are a super effective method of disciplining people with great longterm success in reducing repeat offenders. But the cost on the detainee (who is to be presumed innocent, who may be in distress themself, who may have a psychotic episode due to some unknown cross-reaction with medication or the like, who may be deeply scared) is much, much, much higher, which is why this sort of thing almost never happens where I live (not the US, obviously). I feel there are good reasons to assume that force-injecting someone with a megadose of Ketamine without their knowing what they're getting, understanding what they're getting into, competent assistance during what follows, in a profoundly bad state of mind, likely in deep fear, under heavy stress, while being restrained (otherwise, how would you inject?), with no knowlegde of their medical history or current condition, administered by laypeople, who would be completely useless in case of complications – I believe that isn't quite the same as tasing someone, or using pepper spray. While it's not visible in the way beating injuries are, that sort of thing has big potential to really deeply traumatize and mentally scar people for a long time. Cops here do not have such powers and no one has tried to give them such powers, so far; I hope it stays that way. If someone has to be sedated, a doctor and an ambulance have to be summoned, and the then-patient has to be brought directly to a clinic that can take care of them; all in a medical setting from that point, not primarily an arrest (though, of course, depending on the situation, they may not be allowed to just leave once they're lucid again). This is only ever to be done in case of people in a psychotic episode that cannot be calmed otherwise or the like, it's not something to put into annoying detainees to make them shut up and be easier to handle. Any emergency doctor willing to inject such drugs without proper medical indication would take on big personal risks. And, finally: > Things are a mess if we deny the need to impose proper behavior by force. Things are a mess as well if the tools to do so are passed out without checks and safety mechanisms that are appropriate to their effects. Letting cops shoot people at will while there are other, less severe options, that's awfully bad. And letting them drug people into submission while there are other, less severe options, that too is really bad.
- throwawayWSQA 6y ago
  1. "Soldiers use even better bullets" Almost universally not true. The Geneva convention prohibits many types of bullets that are allowed for civilian use. Hollow points, for example. And there are good reasons why they're allowed for civilians and not war. 2. It's not fair to give us a sanctimonious lecture about how great your country's police procedures are without stating your country. Put up, or drop the lecture. I mean, imagine the chutzpah if you're German!
  - dividedbyzero 6y ago
    I believe soldiers have bullets with a lot more kinetic energy behind them than bullets fired by ordinary police guns; that said, I'm not a gun person, so maybe a police small arms shot is more effective against people than one fired by an assault rifle. Besides, the policy I described is what (AFAIK) most of Europe implements at the moment (might be all of Europe even), including Germany. I don't quite see why stating that requires chutzpah. That wasn't intended as a sanctimonious lecture at all, but since there already is a lot of "nothing less drastic could ever work" in the comments, I thought I'd give an example of another policy that works well. I'm well aware there is no police force or security apparatus without fault, they all get some things wrong (and some are outright atrocious, like in Belarus currently), not trying to make it sound like some EU police service is perfect. I don't know where the US police falls on that spectrum, though reading US news makes it seem like they do have some serious issues currently. This particular policy doesn't exactly help, either.
    - throwawayWSQA 6y ago
      "I don't know where the US police falls on that spectrum, though reading US news makes it seem like they do have some serious issues currently. " Well that's the problem, isn't it? You read news coverage of the US. The observational bias there is huge. Consider: The US is a country of 320 million. As of Brexit, larger than the EU and homogeneously English speaking with homogeneous press and institutions. The EU is smaller with 23 languages or so and a patchwork of everything. So if a Eastern EU cop beats the shit out of a homosexual in jail who would ever find out? At least in Greece it's pretty well documented that cops sodomized Albanian migrant workers with broomsticks. But you wouldn't know that unless you happen to have an Albanian wife who lived in Greece. An Italian squad of carabinieri was just disbanded because it turned out to be running a drug dealing and extortion racket. This is literally current news. Have you heard about it? Spanish police took COVID as an opportunity to abuse their power. National scandal in Spain, I haven't read any non-Spanish (and I mean Spain Spanish, not Spanish language) news about it. In Hesse police computers were used to find out the personal details of a left-wing politician to send them neo-Nazi affiliated threats. Armed agents of the Germany with neo-Nazi links is quite the scandal today in Germany. Notice the bias in my examples: Spanish police - I'm half Spanish Italian police - I'm half Italian Greek police - My wife is Greek speaking Albanian. German police - I suspect you're German so I specifically googled German police abuse Notice I don't have specific French police abuse examples... because I don't speak French! I'm sure a google search will quickly inform me of Algerians young men beat to a pulp by a gendarme. In general, as EU citizen living in the US for over a decade, I find that the EU perspective of the US couldn't be more wrong. [EDIT] grammer
scarface74 6y ago
But surprisingly, even in “good schools”, when the same offense happens by minorities vs. non minorities, it is criminalized when done by minorities. I was amazed at the stories my son told me about kids getting caught with drugs, hitting a coach, vandalizing property and all that happened was that the parents got called and a few days of suspension and the police were never involved. Because “kids will be kids”. Of course this is in a high income district. When I was previously married living in a predominantly minority neighborhood - great neighborhood, lower income minority school district - my step daughter would tell me about the even the most minor of offenses where administrators would get the police involved. There have been plenty of studies showing the unequal treatment of Black and White kids.
- burfog 6y ago
  That's a different school, run by different people. It does not prohibit attendance by students of any race. The only bias I see is that of the parents, who pay a housing premium to avoid being associated with some kinds of people. The local people choose the school board, which then chooses the school policy and administration. School policy is limited by what is allowed and by what seems to work. If the parents usually are quick to discipline students for misbehavior, then parents will be relied upon to do so. If the parents ignore or encourage misbehavior, there is no reason to involve them. The police will be called instead.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    No, same district. Different punishment. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/09/03/police-punitive-policies-make-schools-less-safe-especially-minority-students/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/09/03/police-pun...
    - burfog 6y ago
      Still, you elected a school board that would permit that difference, and you chose where to live. If telling parents gets students under control at one school, and it doesn't work at the other school, punishment will be different. You could get to that policy by trial and error, without any knowledge of the racial makeup of the student body.
antris 6y ago
Can you give us examples of cases where the police are running out of legal options in their use of force?
jessaustin 6y ago
They're not injecting this with tranq darts. Someone who is restrained enough to inject with a syringe, is already restrained enough. Probably with handcuffs/leg-irons/etc., but some cops also like to kneel on necks.
GordonS 6y ago
There is another method you neglected to mention: deescalation. From all I've seen of US law enforcement, this seems to be applied very seldom, with cops actively escalating the situation and quickly reaching for tools of violence (beatings, batons, pepper spray, tasers, guns). Most (all?) of the rest of the western world doesn't have these issues to anywhere near the degree the US does. Nobody in their right mind outside of the US would be justifying injecting people with massive doses of disassociative drugs, yet some people in the US think this is OK. That kind of says it all, really.

collyw 6y ago

If someone is waving a knife or gun about and is a danger to others, I would say there is a moral difference. I am assuming that the police use it mainly for cases like that, but that is just an assumption. It still seems better than shooting at them. The linked article doesn't say anything like that though, but it is quite low on details leading to the arrest.

scaryclam 6y ago
If someone is waving a weapon around I really doubt the police are getting near enough to inject drugs. There seems to be zero good reason for the use of this.
learc83 6y ago
A paramedic isn’t going anywhere near a person waving a gun or a knife to inject them. This is only for people who are already restrained.