3 ms·

You don't sound very skeptic.

by takeda 6y ago

exdsq 6y ago
I am - I happily call out things that don’t require a blockchain, and call bs on projects that shouldn’t use it, but having spent significant time looking into it I’m becoming less so about particular use cases. Edit: If someone can show me a non-blockchain design for decentralised over-collateralised loans then I’ll concede and go back to full skeptic :)
- takeda 6y ago
  I don't know what over-collateralised loans are to suggest a solution, but I'm trusting you. I agree that there are cases where blockchain don't have alternatives. Those are where you want a decentralized ledger and you can't trust anyone. It can accomplish that, but is extremely inefficient doing it, so you really need to decide whether the cost is worth it.
  - exdsq 6y ago
    Why’s it inefficient at doing it? Proof of Stake chains have low fees and very low energy costs. Edit: also, it’s a way of borrowing money immediately from others by locking up collateral until you’ve repaid the loan, else at a certain time the collateral is sent to the loaner. It’s a really cool way of decentralising micro loans and removing financial risk to the loaner. For people who don’t have access to credit it’s proving popular with around a billion dollars in loans locked at the moment.
    - takeda 6y ago
      Back in 2018 it was estimated that bitcoin network itself used more energy than Switzerland. In addition to the energy this also translates to global warming. Anyway you mentioned "If someone can show me a non-blockchain design for decentralised over-collateralised loans then I’ll concede and go back to full skeptic :)" My question is, why it has to be decentralized and come with that huge cost?
      - exdsq 6y ago
        So the blockchain I work on uses significantly less energy than PoW which is what you’re referring too - I agree they’re wasteful. POS doesn’t require the computational effort for blocks so doesn’t require more energy than a small server. As to the decentralised question: as someone from the UK sure we have loans but these allow you to get them without a credit check and they’re accepted/paid immediately. Someone in a third world country might not have access to the same financial instruments we get to enjoy.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > I don't know what over-collateralised loans are to suggest a solution, A loan with a <100% loan-to-value ratio to the value of the supporting collateral, like traditional mortgages.
    - takeda 6y ago
      Ah, I think I understand, because of the home + the money I already put in in it? Why does that have to be decentralized? I already can make a loan against a mortgage and to do it I don't need to use as much of energy to power Switzerland.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > If someone can show me a non-blockchain design for decentralised over-collateralised loans Since “decentralized finance” is typically defined in terms of blockchain use, there are, by the standard definitions, no non-blockchain decentralized finance solutions of any kind.
  - exdsq 6y ago
    Sure, but the normal attack on blockchain is that you can do it without that tech - I think DeFi is genuinely useful and I don’t know how you could implement it with the same guarantees without a blockchain
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > I think DeFi is genuinely useful and I don’t know how you could implement it with the same guarantees without a blockchain If you can't define the problem without reference to blockchain, then no one can offer a non-blockchain solution. That doesn't mean there isn't a non-blockchain solution to the actual problem, just that you are so wrapped up on a preconceived solution that you can't specify what the problem is separate from the solution you've already chosen.
      - exdsq 6y ago
        How can I lend you money that’s repaid at the end of the month automatically, or by you beforehand, if I don’t know/trust you?
emerged 6y ago
I'm a blockchain skeptic. Have I introduced you to our lord and savior, the blockchain?
- exdsq 6y ago
  I’m asking for a discussion about design, no need to be snarky (zk snarky, I could say).

You don't sound very skeptic.

by takeda 6y ago

You don't sound very skeptic.

I am - I happily call out things that don’t require a blockchain, and call bs on projects that shouldn’t use it, but having spent significant time looking into it I’m becoming less so about particular use cases. Edit: If someone can show me a non-blockchain design for decentralised over-collateralised loans then I’ll concede and go back to full skeptic :)

takeda 6y ago
I don't know what over-collateralised loans are to suggest a solution, but I'm trusting you. I agree that there are cases where blockchain don't have alternatives. Those are where you want a decentralized ledger and you can't trust anyone. It can accomplish that, but is extremely inefficient doing it, so you really need to decide whether the cost is worth it.
- exdsq 6y ago
  Why’s it inefficient at doing it? Proof of Stake chains have low fees and very low energy costs. Edit: also, it’s a way of borrowing money immediately from others by locking up collateral until you’ve repaid the loan, else at a certain time the collateral is sent to the loaner. It’s a really cool way of decentralising micro loans and removing financial risk to the loaner. For people who don’t have access to credit it’s proving popular with around a billion dollars in loans locked at the moment.
  - takeda 6y ago
    Back in 2018 it was estimated that bitcoin network itself used more energy than Switzerland. In addition to the energy this also translates to global warming. Anyway you mentioned "If someone can show me a non-blockchain design for decentralised over-collateralised loans then I’ll concede and go back to full skeptic :)" My question is, why it has to be decentralized and come with that huge cost?
    - exdsq 6y ago
      So the blockchain I work on uses significantly less energy than PoW which is what you’re referring too - I agree they’re wasteful. POS doesn’t require the computational effort for blocks so doesn’t require more energy than a small server. As to the decentralised question: as someone from the UK sure we have loans but these allow you to get them without a credit check and they’re accepted/paid immediately. Someone in a third world country might not have access to the same financial instruments we get to enjoy.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > I don't know what over-collateralised loans are to suggest a solution, A loan with a <100% loan-to-value ratio to the value of the supporting collateral, like traditional mortgages.
  - takeda 6y ago
    Ah, I think I understand, because of the home + the money I already put in in it? Why does that have to be decentralized? I already can make a loan against a mortgage and to do it I don't need to use as much of energy to power Switzerland.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> If someone can show me a non-blockchain design for decentralised over-collateralised loans Since “decentralized finance” is typically defined in terms of blockchain use, there are, by the standard definitions, no non-blockchain decentralized finance solutions of any kind.
- exdsq 6y ago
  Sure, but the normal attack on blockchain is that you can do it without that tech - I think DeFi is genuinely useful and I don’t know how you could implement it with the same guarantees without a blockchain
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > I think DeFi is genuinely useful and I don’t know how you could implement it with the same guarantees without a blockchain If you can't define the problem without reference to blockchain, then no one can offer a non-blockchain solution. That doesn't mean there isn't a non-blockchain solution to the actual problem, just that you are so wrapped up on a preconceived solution that you can't specify what the problem is separate from the solution you've already chosen.
    - exdsq 6y ago
      How can I lend you money that’s repaid at the end of the month automatically, or by you beforehand, if I don’t know/trust you?

emerged 6y ago

I'm a blockchain skeptic. Have I introduced you to our lord and savior, the blockchain?

exdsq 6y ago
I’m asking for a discussion about design, no need to be snarky (zk snarky, I could say).