7 ms·

Man, of all the things Mozilla produces I would argue MDN is their most valuable product - as in, if the money really ran out, this should be the last thing to

Man, of all the things Mozilla produces I would argue MDN is their most valuable product - as in, if the money really ran out, this should be the last thing to go. I get cutting the other developer outreach programs, they seem like a luxury, but MDN is like wikipedia for browser devs. It's totally indispensable.

bdcravens 6y ago
It may be valuable as a public good, but what's the ROI for Mozilla? Is it valuable enough that you'd consider paying for access?
- ramadis 6y ago
  > Is it valuable enough that you'd consider paying for access? I'd argue that people would pay for MDN. I know I would pay a small fee for so high-quality straight forward information on web APIs.
- falcolas 6y ago
  If you consider Mozilla as merely a for-profit business, no. If you consider Mozilla's mission statement, the ROI is absolutely through the roof. "Our mission is to ensure the Internet is a global public resource, open and accessible to all. An Internet that truly puts people first, where individuals can shape their own experience and are empowered, safe and independent."
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > It may be valuable as a public good, but what's the ROI for Mozilla? Isn't it the whooooole point of Mozilla that it creates public good for the internet?
- acdha 6y ago
  I’d be curious whether they could make the Wikipedia model work, especially with corporate donations. I’d personally pay just as I do for Read The Docs but it takes a bunch of people to match a single company’s small change funding.
- goodoldneon 6y ago
  > Is it valuable enough that you'd consider paying for access? Yes
- nine_k 6y ago
  I surely would pay, as long as it's not behind a paywall. Much like with Wikipedia. The value of MDN is very much in its being a public good.
- dgellow 6y ago
  > Is it valuable enough that you'd consider paying for access? I would definitely use huge part of my training budgets for this if that would be an option.
  - eli 6y ago
    I mean, if you're allowed to make donations with your training budget, you kinda can
    - dgellow 6y ago
      In my limited experience donations are more complicated to justify to your managers
- schwartzworld 6y ago
  Unquestionably! It's that valuable of a resource. I wonder if a license could be written that allows free use for individuals but requires businesses to pay for access. Obviously it would just be on the honor system but a lot of businesses would pay for the license just to cover their butts.
- eecc 6y ago
  Seems reasonable to host this on https://github.com/ipfs/ipfs https://github.com/ipfs/ipfs
- nitrogen 6y ago
  Everyone else is talking about MDN as a public good in line with the foundation's mission, but it's also economically beneficial to Firefox. The existence of solid web development documentation with feature support matrices encourages FF-compatible development, which helps FF user retention when sites continue to work in FF.
- kinlan 6y ago
  As the lead for Chrome Developer Relations, the way I classify why it's important is: we want the web to succeed and for people to prefer and use the web over other closed platforms. To do that we need people to prefer the experiences on the web. For people to prefer those experiences, the sites and apps need to exist and and to work well, for them to exist and work well developers need the tools and references easily accessible in one place. That place is MDN and that's why we help contribute to it (too little it seems, still).
  - hvis 6y ago
    As the lead for some stuff at Chrome, what's your stance on Google [ab]using its strong market position to promote Chrome basically through all possible channels and muscling out Firefox down to sub-10% market share? "Upgrade to Chrome" on Google's main page irrespective of what the user's current browser is, etc. Are you happy with the resulting browser landscape?
  - InfiniteRand 6y ago
    Are developer relations the people who find out what things are blocking developers from using the web and what things might attract them? Just curious, I hear the term developer relations thrown around a lot
giancarlostoro 6y ago
I said this about Firefox itself, but if they charged to directly sponsor MDN I would sign up. They can even create support tiers that don't really mean anything other than it gets appended to your user role, maybe badges per month per role or something so it stays immortalized. What I said about Firefox Developer Edition: if they kept it free but added a paid version, I would pay for it just to directly support Firefox development. It has to be 100% clear that all funds need to go towards MDN and Firefox Developer tools / Firefox itself in order for me to remain subscribed to either one. Firefox has been my browser for decades now, and MDN has been my bread and butter since whenever I discovered how useful it was.
- eli 6y ago
  What else would the funds go to that you're worried about?
  - giancarlostoro 6y ago
    You may want to see why Thunderbird had to create their own foundation just to fund their project. Firefox makes most of its income from the search engine deal with Google it seems. Looking at the Mozilla Foundation (not to be confused with the corporation which is what maintains Firefox) their initiatives dont even mention Firefox. They really need to make it very transparent where your money ends up. They list a buncha awards and convention type events, that's not helping Firefox at all. https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/initiatives/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/initiatives/
    - eitland 6y ago
      From what I understand Firefox is only a source of income, not a prioritized product. And yes: IMO this is kibd of backwards. Firefox has been their biggest contribution to the open web and it seems they are treating it as just an income source.
      - eli 6y ago
        I don't see how that could be true given that they continue to roll out features to Firefox.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
andrei_says_ 6y ago
What if we could all pay an optional $5 / year for dedicated staff?
- spurgu 6y ago
  Fuck yeah if they branch out to become a separate entity, I certainly wouldn't put a single cent towards a company that's cutting off MDN just like that.
jrochkind1 6y ago
It is indispensable to web developers. Is it the most valuable contribution to Mozilla's mission? > Our mission is to ensure the Internet is a global public resource, open and accessible to all. An Internet that truly puts people first, where individuals can shape their own experience and are empowered, safe and independent.

bdcravens 6y ago

It may be valuable as a public good, but what's the ROI for Mozilla? Is it valuable enough that you'd consider paying for access?

ramadis 6y ago
> Is it valuable enough that you'd consider paying for access? I'd argue that people would pay for MDN. I know I would pay a small fee for so high-quality straight forward information on web APIs.
falcolas 6y ago
If you consider Mozilla as merely a for-profit business, no. If you consider Mozilla's mission statement, the ROI is absolutely through the roof. "Our mission is to ensure the Internet is a global public resource, open and accessible to all. An Internet that truly puts people first, where individuals can shape their own experience and are empowered, safe and independent."
chrisseaton 6y ago
> It may be valuable as a public good, but what's the ROI for Mozilla? Isn't it the whooooole point of Mozilla that it creates public good for the internet?
acdha 6y ago
I’d be curious whether they could make the Wikipedia model work, especially with corporate donations. I’d personally pay just as I do for Read The Docs but it takes a bunch of people to match a single company’s small change funding.
goodoldneon 6y ago
> Is it valuable enough that you'd consider paying for access? Yes
nine_k 6y ago
I surely would pay, as long as it's not behind a paywall. Much like with Wikipedia. The value of MDN is very much in its being a public good.
dgellow 6y ago
> Is it valuable enough that you'd consider paying for access? I would definitely use huge part of my training budgets for this if that would be an option.
- eli 6y ago
  I mean, if you're allowed to make donations with your training budget, you kinda can
  - dgellow 6y ago
    In my limited experience donations are more complicated to justify to your managers
schwartzworld 6y ago
Unquestionably! It's that valuable of a resource. I wonder if a license could be written that allows free use for individuals but requires businesses to pay for access. Obviously it would just be on the honor system but a lot of businesses would pay for the license just to cover their butts.
eecc 6y ago
Seems reasonable to host this on https://github.com/ipfs/ipfs https://github.com/ipfs/ipfs
nitrogen 6y ago
Everyone else is talking about MDN as a public good in line with the foundation's mission, but it's also economically beneficial to Firefox. The existence of solid web development documentation with feature support matrices encourages FF-compatible development, which helps FF user retention when sites continue to work in FF.
kinlan 6y ago
As the lead for Chrome Developer Relations, the way I classify why it's important is: we want the web to succeed and for people to prefer and use the web over other closed platforms. To do that we need people to prefer the experiences on the web. For people to prefer those experiences, the sites and apps need to exist and and to work well, for them to exist and work well developers need the tools and references easily accessible in one place. That place is MDN and that's why we help contribute to it (too little it seems, still).
- hvis 6y ago
  As the lead for some stuff at Chrome, what's your stance on Google [ab]using its strong market position to promote Chrome basically through all possible channels and muscling out Firefox down to sub-10% market share? "Upgrade to Chrome" on Google's main page irrespective of what the user's current browser is, etc. Are you happy with the resulting browser landscape?
- InfiniteRand 6y ago
  Are developer relations the people who find out what things are blocking developers from using the web and what things might attract them? Just curious, I hear the term developer relations thrown around a lot

giancarlostoro 6y ago

I said this about Firefox itself, but if they charged to directly sponsor MDN I would sign up. They can even create support tiers that don't really mean anything other than it gets appended to your user role, maybe badges per month per role or something so it stays immortalized. What I said about Firefox Developer Edition: if they kept it free but added a paid version, I would pay for it just to directly support Firefox development. It has to be 100% clear that all funds need to go towards MDN and Firefox Developer tools / Firefox itself in order for me to remain subscribed to either one. Firefox has been my browser for decades now, and MDN has been my bread and butter since whenever I discovered how useful it was.

eli 6y ago
What else would the funds go to that you're worried about?
- giancarlostoro 6y ago
  You may want to see why Thunderbird had to create their own foundation just to fund their project. Firefox makes most of its income from the search engine deal with Google it seems. Looking at the Mozilla Foundation (not to be confused with the corporation which is what maintains Firefox) their initiatives dont even mention Firefox. They really need to make it very transparent where your money ends up. They list a buncha awards and convention type events, that's not helping Firefox at all. https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/initiatives/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/initiatives/
  - eitland 6y ago
    From what I understand Firefox is only a source of income, not a prioritized product. And yes: IMO this is kibd of backwards. Firefox has been their biggest contribution to the open web and it seems they are treating it as just an income source.
    - eli 6y ago
      I don't see how that could be true given that they continue to roll out features to Firefox.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

andrei_says_ 6y ago

What if we could all pay an optional $5 / year for dedicated staff?

spurgu 6y ago
Fuck yeah if they branch out to become a separate entity, I certainly wouldn't put a single cent towards a company that's cutting off MDN just like that.

jrochkind1 6y ago

It is indispensable to web developers. Is it the most valuable contribution to Mozilla's mission? > Our mission is to ensure the Internet is a global public resource, open and accessible to all. An Internet that truly puts people first, where individuals can shape their own experience and are empowered, safe and independent.