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It's never "the work of a long-preparing revolutionnary crowd" revolution, but always a "latest fashionable technology" revolution. Tech propaganda at its best

It's never "the work of a long-preparing revolutionnary crowd" revolution, but always a "latest fashionable technology" revolution. Tech propaganda at its best.

ip26 6y ago
Are you similarly critical of discussions about how ubiquitous camera phones have changed the civil rights movement? Technology is only a tool, and is only as good as what people actually do with it. But it can be a crucial tool that changes everything.
- echelon 6y ago
  I don't think so. Calling it "{arbitrary brand} revolution", when pretty much every messaging platform is indistinguishable feels crass and tacky. The brand isn't the one in the trenches making the sacrifices. It could be called a smart phone revolution instead. A revolution of the people.
  - ip26 6y ago
    In defense of the journalist, it's a direct quote from a protester who is presumably in the trenches making the sacrifices.
  - dgellow 6y ago
    Telegram has some distinct features that makes it quite good during protests: - location based chats, you see people around and can start a local group. So you can easily get in contact with other protestors around you. - Broadcasting channels - Not by default, but you can creat encrypted chats, with auto destruction - Since a few days, encrypted video calls - Not owned by Facebook
    - ROARosen 6y ago
      >- Not owned by Facebook "nine out of ten Egyptians and Tunisians responded to a poll that they used Facebook to organise protests and spread awareness" [1] "During the Arab Spring the number of users of social networks, especially Facebook, rose dramatically in most Arab countries, particularly in those where political uprising took place, with the exception of Libya, which at the time had low Internet access preventing people from doing so" [1] As far as I'm aware Facebook is actually owned by Facebook. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_and_the_Arab_Spring#Uneven_impact_of_social_media_on_political_processes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_and_the_Arab_Spri...
      - lordnacho 6y ago
        Facebook 2020 isn't the same as Facebook 2010. Their public image has changed a lot in between.
        ROARosen 6y ago
        > Their public image has changed a lot in between. Keyword "public". It is the same useful for protests as it was then.
        stjohnswarts 6y ago
        However they have only gotten worse over time. It's just now that they're willing to block some far right/far left groups trying to fraudulently dump info in the form of ads and memes on Facebook.
      - dgellow 6y ago
        I don’t get your point. Telegram is not owned by Facebook. A potential alternative, WhatsApp, is owned by Facebook. That’s the point I was going for. And you have a huge difference between Facebook 2010 and 2020.
      - postnihilism 6y ago
        Given the relationship the current US administration has with Russia, it seems like Facebook would be a less welcome alternative for a pro-democracy Belarusian protestor.
    - newscracker 6y ago
      > Since a few days, encrypted video calls Careful though, since video calls are currently in alpha.
  - jgilias 6y ago
    It was reported that Telegram was the only thing that somewhat kept working when the internet was down country wide. Also, I installed Telegram for the explicit purpose of following the events in Belarus directly from sources. By doing that I noticed that apparently the local press in my country have done the same, as it seemed that most of the updates in online media have come from the same Telegram channels. So, it has also served the role of information dissemination beyond the borders of Belarus at a time when journalists working there were harassed and sometimes imprisoned.
    - ddorian43 6y ago
      Uhhh how did it work when the internet went down ?
      - JosephHatfield 6y ago
        I believe the Telegram app has a peer-to-peer feature that allows communication to be routed through other devices rather than requiring communication with the Telegram servers
        shawnz 6y ago
        That is not the case. It is a plain old client-server architecture. You might be thinking of FireChat.
      - jgilias 6y ago
        Yeah, no idea really. It'd be nice to find out from someone more in the know. Was the internet merely heavily deteriorated instead of shut down completely? I also read that most of the VPNs wouldn't work, with the exception of psiphon.
      - detaro 6y ago
        They didn't fully shut down the internet the entire time. I.e. at least for a while, apparently port 80 was still open when other things were blocked.
  - pesfandiar 6y ago
    Nobody sees "Telegram revolution" and thinks the revolution was all about or solely enabled by the brand/technology. It's just a unique aspect of the revolution used to identify it. A good example of how a brand/technology was used to name (but not describe) an event over 30 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_War
  - znpy 6y ago
    Except that isn't the case. Reportedly, Telegram has kept working when other apps did not. That makes it a "telegram revolution".
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    Well telegram is what they're using, do you suggest that the name of the app be left out of the article? The statements are coming from excited & anxious activists. Of course they're going to be overstated. I hope they are successful in their peaceful coupe and get honest elections. Can't you just have hope for them as well?
- jancsika 6y ago
  You're not disagreeing with OP's point that this is "tech propaganda at its best." Same logic would apply if, say, a camera company had tried to brand Selma.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  >But it can be a crucial tool that changes everything. this is the exact same narrative that took place when the Arab Spring happened. What determines the success of revolutions isn't what makes the news media, it's what happens on day 1 after the revolution is over and the cameras are turned off
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
Long-preparing revolutionaries need a way to communicate and coordinate with a bunch of people who suddenly see things their way. The government often tries to jam the lines of communication, so some alternate form of communication is often critical.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  Indeed, from TFA: ...authorities shut off the internet, leaving Belarusians with almost no access to independent online news outlets or social media and protesters seemingly without a leader. That’s where Telegram — which often remains available despite internet outages, touts the security of messages shared in the app and has been used in other protest movements — came in. Some of its channels helped unconnected, scattered rallies mature into well-coordinated action.
- ceeniwer 6y ago
  I wonder why is it that folks in Hong Kong, xinjiang and Tibet can’t effectively work together using telegram to start a massive nation wide riot. There are so many Folks in those regions who are oppressed (millions) and they are being organ harvested, forced to work in factories as slave labor, held in concentration camps, disappeared without trials, and tortured for democratic ideals. Or these folks can coordinate with protestors in other parts of the world, to raise awareness and stop consumers from buying from a dictatorship.
  - FpUser 6y ago
    >"to start a massive nation wide riot" - Keyboard warrior? This is a crime in any country including the the US. Can you imagine what it will do to you in a country like China? >"Or these folks can coordinate with protesters in other parts of the world, to raise awareness and stop consumers from buying from a dictatorship." - What prevents you from not buying from a dictatorship now? Do you need to be directed by people from Tibet about it?
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    In Xinjiang, the Uighur population are obliged to run a version of Android with surveillance software installed on it that is constantly phoning home about all activity on the device. So, even if it were possible to install a chat app that evades the Great Firewall, everything that one reads and types on that phone would still be sent on to the authorities regardless. Belarus is a dictatorship, but far less authoritarian in the digital realm than Xinjiang.
Nasrudith 6y ago
To be fair "long preparing revolutionary" people tend to be dogmatic loons who are obsessed with some pure concept (religious fundamentalism, communism, ethnonationalism) that aren't enough to be a crowd. As opposed to a general populace pushed to an edge by extreme conditions and leadership which does the exact wrong thing in a circumstance.
- robertfw 6y ago
  > To be fair "long preparing revolutionary" people tend to be dogmatic loons who are obsessed with some pure concept * citation needed
- rectang 6y ago
  "Dogmatic loons", like, say, Nelson Mandela?
charia 6y ago
It's literally what one of the protestors called it. > “Telegram channels and websites that don’t belong to our government are the main source of information today as we cannot at all rely on state media,” said Roman Semenov, who follows the NEXTA channels and joined a rally in central Minsk on Wednesday evening. “It’s a Telegram revolution.” On top of that this is article detailing how this particular technology, has made a significant impact for the protesters. “The fate of the country has never depended so much on one [piece] of technology,” Viacorka said. There have been a number of articles and news coverage of this topic. That this one article focused on the technology aspect of the protesters and protesting does not make it, "tech propaganda."
- shawnz 6y ago
  And the journalist who gets paid to write a nice article about Signal will surely get a quote from the protestor who happened to use Signal and not Telegram.
  - skyyler 6y ago
    I'm not sure why you've brought up Signal, they're completely different platforms. Signal focuses on secure communication, Telegram has a secure communication feature... But also a social network of group chats and channels that link to each other; and that's the focus of this article.
    - gjs278 6y ago
      he brought it up because someone was paid to write nice things about telegram, so they found a guy using that when signal asks for an article, someone will be quoted as how signal was helpful
    - shawnz 6y ago
      It was just an example of a product which could be touted as enabling protestors. The other use cases of Telegram could be serviced by other apps. There are plenty of non-E2E social networks available just like Telegram. EDIT: Unfortunately postmodernbrute I am not able to reply to your comment. But I am not trying to deny that Telegram has caught a wave of popularity among Belarusians and others. What I am saying is that Telegram likely only has that trust because of puff pieces like this. It is not because of any technological superiority or unique feature that it provides (since it isn't/there aren't any).
75dvtwin 6y ago
@soufron, I agree with you. It is shameful, to call uprising of suppressed -- against systemic unfairness -- as 'Telegram revolution'. This is akin to stealing valor (basically stealing medals and pretending to be the honorable). This type of valor stealing, is also happening when people call US border detention facilities as 'Nazi concentration camps'. For people whose family members went through a Nazi concentration camp, hearing such a comparing is painful. For Byelorussians whose livers and kidneys were raptured by the beatings, whose loved ones are imprisoned -- hearing Telegram marketing spin is painful, like when their valor, their sacrifice is stolen. Yes of course, without recording technology, in my view, we would not have successful type of investigative journalism that project Veritas has delivered. Or, without cell phones, the ability of people of Belarus to share images of brutality with the world. Technology, is helping to concentrate the will power of the masses, against well funded machines of system oppressions. But the will of the people, their sacrifices, their sufferings -- is the driving force -- not Telegram
- brosinante 6y ago
  Calling a detention facility a Nazi concentration camp is not the same as calling a grassroots effort a "telegram revolution". One is making an analogy to history, the other is using a vapid phrase to market a mobile app.
  - bdamm 6y ago
    "The medium is the message" In fact it is a Telegram revolution, because Telegram is the tool that is allowing this rage to become organized. That doesn't minimize anything about the protesting or the political situation itself. That's not marketing, it's just recognizing the tool.
- echelon 6y ago
  > This type of valor stealing, is also happening when people call US border detention facilities as 'Nazi concentration camps'. For people whose family members went through a Nazi concentration camp, hearing such a comparing is painful. I was with you until this comment. What the Jews went through is horrible beyond words. What immigrant families are going through is also horrible. They may not be systematically murdered like the Jews being sent to gas chambers, and they may not be sterilized like the Uighurs, but they are still suffering. Families are being separated forever. Lost children will never be given back to their parents. That's not okay. Don't trivialize human suffering. Condemn it. Don't turn it into an analogy where you can praise those that suffered the most. Who are you to know how any of this feels? We're not trying to win some contest here - the result we're after is the end of suffering.
nix23 6y ago
It's really disgusting!! It's like saying, not Trump is bad but twitter is...so US, it's not BLM but TSM (Twitter Shitstorm Matters)
- chrisweekly 6y ago
  You'd be more persuasive if you toned the language down. FWIW, I'm not up nor downvoting you, just sharing perspective as a mod with political sympathies.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
EGreg 6y ago
I remember when Arab Spring was blamed on social media and Google Then Moscow had a giant demonstration on Red Square and that’s right around the time Putin blinked and started cracking down on such platforms and free speech. Of course, for those who remember, Telegram was started by Pavel Durov, the “Zuckerberg of Russia” who refused to give out details of VKontakte users, and the mail.ru conglomerate took his company, while he fled to France and started Telegram. Roskomnadzor tried unsuccessfully to ban it in Russia, and inadvertently banned colocated AWS servers hosting LinkedIn etc.
- Udik 6y ago
  > I remember when Arab Spring was blamed on social media and Google There's a pretty big and well known country that is blaming the election of its president on interference of another country through social media. It seems pretty credible the same social media can have promoted protests in more unstable countries.
sam_lowry_ 6y ago
Wrong. Telegram worked actively for years towards such usage scenarios.

It's never "the work of a long-preparing revolutionnary crowd" revolution, but always a "latest fashionable technology" revolution. Tech propaganda at its best.

ip26 6y ago

Are you similarly critical of discussions about how ubiquitous camera phones have changed the civil rights movement? Technology is only a tool, and is only as good as what people actually do with it. But it can be a crucial tool that changes everything.

echelon 6y ago
I don't think so. Calling it "{arbitrary brand} revolution", when pretty much every messaging platform is indistinguishable feels crass and tacky. The brand isn't the one in the trenches making the sacrifices. It could be called a smart phone revolution instead. A revolution of the people.
- ip26 6y ago
  In defense of the journalist, it's a direct quote from a protester who is presumably in the trenches making the sacrifices.
- dgellow 6y ago
  Telegram has some distinct features that makes it quite good during protests: - location based chats, you see people around and can start a local group. So you can easily get in contact with other protestors around you. - Broadcasting channels - Not by default, but you can creat encrypted chats, with auto destruction - Since a few days, encrypted video calls - Not owned by Facebook
  - ROARosen 6y ago
    >- Not owned by Facebook "nine out of ten Egyptians and Tunisians responded to a poll that they used Facebook to organise protests and spread awareness" [1] "During the Arab Spring the number of users of social networks, especially Facebook, rose dramatically in most Arab countries, particularly in those where political uprising took place, with the exception of Libya, which at the time had low Internet access preventing people from doing so" [1] As far as I'm aware Facebook is actually owned by Facebook. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_and_the_Arab_Spring#Uneven_impact_of_social_media_on_political_processes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_and_the_Arab_Spri...
    - lordnacho 6y ago
      Facebook 2020 isn't the same as Facebook 2010. Their public image has changed a lot in between.
      - ROARosen 6y ago
        > Their public image has changed a lot in between. Keyword "public". It is the same useful for protests as it was then.
        stjohnswarts 6y ago
        However they have only gotten worse over time. It's just now that they're willing to block some far right/far left groups trying to fraudulently dump info in the form of ads and memes on Facebook.
    - dgellow 6y ago
      I don’t get your point. Telegram is not owned by Facebook. A potential alternative, WhatsApp, is owned by Facebook. That’s the point I was going for. And you have a huge difference between Facebook 2010 and 2020.
    - postnihilism 6y ago
      Given the relationship the current US administration has with Russia, it seems like Facebook would be a less welcome alternative for a pro-democracy Belarusian protestor.
  - newscracker 6y ago
    > Since a few days, encrypted video calls Careful though, since video calls are currently in alpha.
- jgilias 6y ago
  It was reported that Telegram was the only thing that somewhat kept working when the internet was down country wide. Also, I installed Telegram for the explicit purpose of following the events in Belarus directly from sources. By doing that I noticed that apparently the local press in my country have done the same, as it seemed that most of the updates in online media have come from the same Telegram channels. So, it has also served the role of information dissemination beyond the borders of Belarus at a time when journalists working there were harassed and sometimes imprisoned.
  - ddorian43 6y ago
    Uhhh how did it work when the internet went down ?
    - JosephHatfield 6y ago
      I believe the Telegram app has a peer-to-peer feature that allows communication to be routed through other devices rather than requiring communication with the Telegram servers
      - shawnz 6y ago
        That is not the case. It is a plain old client-server architecture. You might be thinking of FireChat.
    - jgilias 6y ago
      Yeah, no idea really. It'd be nice to find out from someone more in the know. Was the internet merely heavily deteriorated instead of shut down completely? I also read that most of the VPNs wouldn't work, with the exception of psiphon.
    - detaro 6y ago
      They didn't fully shut down the internet the entire time. I.e. at least for a while, apparently port 80 was still open when other things were blocked.
- pesfandiar 6y ago
  Nobody sees "Telegram revolution" and thinks the revolution was all about or solely enabled by the brand/technology. It's just a unique aspect of the revolution used to identify it. A good example of how a brand/technology was used to name (but not describe) an event over 30 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_War
- znpy 6y ago
  Except that isn't the case. Reportedly, Telegram has kept working when other apps did not. That makes it a "telegram revolution".
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  Well telegram is what they're using, do you suggest that the name of the app be left out of the article? The statements are coming from excited & anxious activists. Of course they're going to be overstated. I hope they are successful in their peaceful coupe and get honest elections. Can't you just have hope for them as well?
jancsika 6y ago
You're not disagreeing with OP's point that this is "tech propaganda at its best." Same logic would apply if, say, a camera company had tried to brand Selma.
Barrin92 6y ago
>But it can be a crucial tool that changes everything. this is the exact same narrative that took place when the Arab Spring happened. What determines the success of revolutions isn't what makes the news media, it's what happens on day 1 after the revolution is over and the cameras are turned off

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

Long-preparing revolutionaries need a way to communicate and coordinate with a bunch of people who suddenly see things their way. The government often tries to jam the lines of communication, so some alternate form of communication is often critical.

jessaustin 6y ago
Indeed, from TFA: ...authorities shut off the internet, leaving Belarusians with almost no access to independent online news outlets or social media and protesters seemingly without a leader. That’s where Telegram — which often remains available despite internet outages, touts the security of messages shared in the app and has been used in other protest movements — came in. Some of its channels helped unconnected, scattered rallies mature into well-coordinated action.
ceeniwer 6y ago
I wonder why is it that folks in Hong Kong, xinjiang and Tibet can’t effectively work together using telegram to start a massive nation wide riot. There are so many Folks in those regions who are oppressed (millions) and they are being organ harvested, forced to work in factories as slave labor, held in concentration camps, disappeared without trials, and tortured for democratic ideals. Or these folks can coordinate with protestors in other parts of the world, to raise awareness and stop consumers from buying from a dictatorship.
- FpUser 6y ago
  >"to start a massive nation wide riot" - Keyboard warrior? This is a crime in any country including the the US. Can you imagine what it will do to you in a country like China? >"Or these folks can coordinate with protesters in other parts of the world, to raise awareness and stop consumers from buying from a dictatorship." - What prevents you from not buying from a dictatorship now? Do you need to be directed by people from Tibet about it?
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  In Xinjiang, the Uighur population are obliged to run a version of Android with surveillance software installed on it that is constantly phoning home about all activity on the device. So, even if it were possible to install a chat app that evades the Great Firewall, everything that one reads and types on that phone would still be sent on to the authorities regardless. Belarus is a dictatorship, but far less authoritarian in the digital realm than Xinjiang.

Nasrudith 6y ago

To be fair "long preparing revolutionary" people tend to be dogmatic loons who are obsessed with some pure concept (religious fundamentalism, communism, ethnonationalism) that aren't enough to be a crowd. As opposed to a general populace pushed to an edge by extreme conditions and leadership which does the exact wrong thing in a circumstance.

robertfw 6y ago
> To be fair "long preparing revolutionary" people tend to be dogmatic loons who are obsessed with some pure concept * citation needed
rectang 6y ago
"Dogmatic loons", like, say, Nelson Mandela?

charia 6y ago

It's literally what one of the protestors called it. > “Telegram channels and websites that don’t belong to our government are the main source of information today as we cannot at all rely on state media,” said Roman Semenov, who follows the NEXTA channels and joined a rally in central Minsk on Wednesday evening. “It’s a Telegram revolution.” On top of that this is article detailing how this particular technology, has made a significant impact for the protesters. “The fate of the country has never depended so much on one [piece] of technology,” Viacorka said. There have been a number of articles and news coverage of this topic. That this one article focused on the technology aspect of the protesters and protesting does not make it, "tech propaganda."

shawnz 6y ago
And the journalist who gets paid to write a nice article about Signal will surely get a quote from the protestor who happened to use Signal and not Telegram.
- skyyler 6y ago
  I'm not sure why you've brought up Signal, they're completely different platforms. Signal focuses on secure communication, Telegram has a secure communication feature... But also a social network of group chats and channels that link to each other; and that's the focus of this article.
  - gjs278 6y ago
    he brought it up because someone was paid to write nice things about telegram, so they found a guy using that when signal asks for an article, someone will be quoted as how signal was helpful
  - shawnz 6y ago
    It was just an example of a product which could be touted as enabling protestors. The other use cases of Telegram could be serviced by other apps. There are plenty of non-E2E social networks available just like Telegram. EDIT: Unfortunately postmodernbrute I am not able to reply to your comment. But I am not trying to deny that Telegram has caught a wave of popularity among Belarusians and others. What I am saying is that Telegram likely only has that trust because of puff pieces like this. It is not because of any technological superiority or unique feature that it provides (since it isn't/there aren't any).

75dvtwin 6y ago

@soufron, I agree with you. It is shameful, to call uprising of suppressed -- against systemic unfairness -- as 'Telegram revolution'. This is akin to stealing valor (basically stealing medals and pretending to be the honorable). This type of valor stealing, is also happening when people call US border detention facilities as 'Nazi concentration camps'. For people whose family members went through a Nazi concentration camp, hearing such a comparing is painful. For Byelorussians whose livers and kidneys were raptured by the beatings, whose loved ones are imprisoned -- hearing Telegram marketing spin is painful, like when their valor, their sacrifice is stolen. Yes of course, without recording technology, in my view, we would not have successful type of investigative journalism that project Veritas has delivered. Or, without cell phones, the ability of people of Belarus to share images of brutality with the world. Technology, is helping to concentrate the will power of the masses, against well funded machines of system oppressions. But the will of the people, their sacrifices, their sufferings -- is the driving force -- not Telegram

brosinante 6y ago
Calling a detention facility a Nazi concentration camp is not the same as calling a grassroots effort a "telegram revolution". One is making an analogy to history, the other is using a vapid phrase to market a mobile app.
- bdamm 6y ago
  "The medium is the message" In fact it is a Telegram revolution, because Telegram is the tool that is allowing this rage to become organized. That doesn't minimize anything about the protesting or the political situation itself. That's not marketing, it's just recognizing the tool.
echelon 6y ago
> This type of valor stealing, is also happening when people call US border detention facilities as 'Nazi concentration camps'. For people whose family members went through a Nazi concentration camp, hearing such a comparing is painful. I was with you until this comment. What the Jews went through is horrible beyond words. What immigrant families are going through is also horrible. They may not be systematically murdered like the Jews being sent to gas chambers, and they may not be sterilized like the Uighurs, but they are still suffering. Families are being separated forever. Lost children will never be given back to their parents. That's not okay. Don't trivialize human suffering. Condemn it. Don't turn it into an analogy where you can praise those that suffered the most. Who are you to know how any of this feels? We're not trying to win some contest here - the result we're after is the end of suffering.

nix23 6y ago

It's really disgusting!! It's like saying, not Trump is bad but twitter is...so US, it's not BLM but TSM (Twitter Shitstorm Matters)

chrisweekly 6y ago
You'd be more persuasive if you toned the language down. FWIW, I'm not up nor downvoting you, just sharing perspective as a mod with political sympathies.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

EGreg 6y ago

I remember when Arab Spring was blamed on social media and Google Then Moscow had a giant demonstration on Red Square and that’s right around the time Putin blinked and started cracking down on such platforms and free speech. Of course, for those who remember, Telegram was started by Pavel Durov, the “Zuckerberg of Russia” who refused to give out details of VKontakte users, and the mail.ru conglomerate took his company, while he fled to France and started Telegram. Roskomnadzor tried unsuccessfully to ban it in Russia, and inadvertently banned colocated AWS servers hosting LinkedIn etc.

Udik 6y ago
> I remember when Arab Spring was blamed on social media and Google There's a pretty big and well known country that is blaming the election of its president on interference of another country through social media. It seems pretty credible the same social media can have promoted protests in more unstable countries.

sam_lowry_ 6y ago

Wrong. Telegram worked actively for years towards such usage scenarios.