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Thanks for pointing that out, as others have written below, I'm a new user and while the system here looks pretty similiar to the one at Reddit, the type of com

Thanks for pointing that out, as others have written below, I'm a new user and while the system here looks pretty similiar to the one at Reddit, the type of comment that is appreciated here seems vastly different. I was kind of surprised to instantly receive 3 downvotes for my first comment that just expressed my happiness to have found this community, and while it was pretty void of content, the rules expressly state that empty comments can be OK if they are positive. I agree that the system is quite a bit too trigger-happy. Being shadowbanned is a pretty shitty spot to be in and I don't think 9 downvotes over 4 comments qualify for such harsh punishment.

pbhjpbhj 16y ago
>I don't think 9 downvotes over 4 comments qualify for such harsh punishment Personally I'd say that depends. If you have a positive comment history then no you sholdn't be banned for a small run of comments that the community finds unhelpful to the conversation. If all of your first comments are downvoted then I suggest you make a new account and wait until you have something positive to say. Note that positive doesn't mean affirming groupthink, or karma whoring (which is hard here but looks possible) but adding to the conversation. An opposing opinion well expressed often won't win a lot of upvotes but it usually gets more ups than downs.
- dhimes 16y ago
  Part of the problem is that downvoting is used to express disagreement. We have this discussion often on HN (perhaps too often): http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 Note: the following unexpectedly turned into a bit of a rant, with a dose of whining thrown in: Many of us "old-timers" think that downvoting without giving a reason is mostly bad form (the exception is for a rude or obnoxious comment). I've personally noticed an increase in this behavior. I believe that doing so decreases the user experience. I've had plenty of disagreements over the years and have almost always learned something from them (even if it just required me to do a bit of soul-searching). Posts would be painstakingly composed (one of the big complaints we had was that the post-page timed out while we were composing- so we had to result in using a separate editor to compose, then click "reply" and copy-and-paste. But now-- why bother? I've been around a while. I'm on my second (third?) career. Not a hacker extraordinaire by any means, but I'm well educated technically and have maintained my involvement with a broad array of interests (I like to learn new things). I've seen some things, and I'm willing to share- and even be challenged in my own conclusions about them. But when I make a post that the "average HN-er" (age 25, so I hear) may not think is very smart and I immediately get downvoted with no reason given, it sends a signal that HN has changed in a very dramatic way. The site is far less valuable than it used to be.
  - kami8845 16y ago
    I might not have as much experience as you, but if I've only learnt one thing from being active on Reddit is that giving your personal karma-score any meaning is just a major headache and best be avoided. But the development you are talking about can also be witnessed there. For example in /r/programming, there used to be things such as posts with 91 comment karma and _0_ downvotes. This stuff doesn't exist anymore, the community has grown, become a lot less homogenous and more 'nay-sayers' have introduced themselves. The above is of course just an example that is indicitative of what I'm talking about. In my opinion, it is best to simply accept downvotes without explanation as background noise. They happen and there's not much you can do about it.
    - kami8845 16y ago
      @pbhjpbhj I know what you're talking about but it doesn't apply to comments. The only thing that automatically adds up and downvotes to comments is what they call 'fuzzy comment karma' which is to prevent bots from figuring out too quickly that they have been shadow-banned, since to them it looks like they are getting 2 downvotes here and 3 upvotes over there. The system has been active longer than the post was old and it's just and example, if you read through comment threads back then and now, you will notice the difference without having to rely on karmic metrics.
    - dhimes 16y ago
      giving your personal karma-score any meaning is just a major headache and best be avoided Oh, yes, completely agree. It not the karma scoring that hurts, but rather than no discussion is considered acceptable. it is best to simply accept downvotes without explanation as background noise Sadly, yes.
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    >[kami] "For example in /r/programming, there used to be things such as posts with 91 comment karma and _0_ downvotes. This stuff doesn't exist anymore, the community has grown, become a lot less homogenous and more 'nay-sayers' have introduced themselves." WRT Reddit what I've heard on the site is that they have an obfuscation system that adds downvotes and hides the current voting position. It would be impossible thus to see that a story had 91 upvotes and no downs as apparent downvotes are automatically added. It's supposed to be part of the system to prevent people from gaming karma scores.
- bobbyfive 16y ago
  "Note that positive doesn't mean affirming groupthink, or karma whoring (which is hard here but looks possible) but adding to the conversation." That's simply not true. There are plenty of examples of people getting downvoted for having a contrary viewpoint. Groupthink is alive and well on HN.

pbhjpbhj 16y ago

>I don't think 9 downvotes over 4 comments qualify for such harsh punishment Personally I'd say that depends. If you have a positive comment history then no you sholdn't be banned for a small run of comments that the community finds unhelpful to the conversation. If all of your first comments are downvoted then I suggest you make a new account and wait until you have something positive to say. Note that positive doesn't mean affirming groupthink, or karma whoring (which is hard here but looks possible) but adding to the conversation. An opposing opinion well expressed often won't win a lot of upvotes but it usually gets more ups than downs.

dhimes 16y ago
Part of the problem is that downvoting is used to express disagreement. We have this discussion often on HN (perhaps too often): http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 Note: the following unexpectedly turned into a bit of a rant, with a dose of whining thrown in: Many of us "old-timers" think that downvoting without giving a reason is mostly bad form (the exception is for a rude or obnoxious comment). I've personally noticed an increase in this behavior. I believe that doing so decreases the user experience. I've had plenty of disagreements over the years and have almost always learned something from them (even if it just required me to do a bit of soul-searching). Posts would be painstakingly composed (one of the big complaints we had was that the post-page timed out while we were composing- so we had to result in using a separate editor to compose, then click "reply" and copy-and-paste. But now-- why bother? I've been around a while. I'm on my second (third?) career. Not a hacker extraordinaire by any means, but I'm well educated technically and have maintained my involvement with a broad array of interests (I like to learn new things). I've seen some things, and I'm willing to share- and even be challenged in my own conclusions about them. But when I make a post that the "average HN-er" (age 25, so I hear) may not think is very smart and I immediately get downvoted with no reason given, it sends a signal that HN has changed in a very dramatic way. The site is far less valuable than it used to be.
- kami8845 16y ago
  I might not have as much experience as you, but if I've only learnt one thing from being active on Reddit is that giving your personal karma-score any meaning is just a major headache and best be avoided. But the development you are talking about can also be witnessed there. For example in /r/programming, there used to be things such as posts with 91 comment karma and _0_ downvotes. This stuff doesn't exist anymore, the community has grown, become a lot less homogenous and more 'nay-sayers' have introduced themselves. The above is of course just an example that is indicitative of what I'm talking about. In my opinion, it is best to simply accept downvotes without explanation as background noise. They happen and there's not much you can do about it.
  - kami8845 16y ago
    @pbhjpbhj I know what you're talking about but it doesn't apply to comments. The only thing that automatically adds up and downvotes to comments is what they call 'fuzzy comment karma' which is to prevent bots from figuring out too quickly that they have been shadow-banned, since to them it looks like they are getting 2 downvotes here and 3 upvotes over there. The system has been active longer than the post was old and it's just and example, if you read through comment threads back then and now, you will notice the difference without having to rely on karmic metrics.
  - dhimes 16y ago
    giving your personal karma-score any meaning is just a major headache and best be avoided Oh, yes, completely agree. It not the karma scoring that hurts, but rather than no discussion is considered acceptable. it is best to simply accept downvotes without explanation as background noise Sadly, yes.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  >[kami] "For example in /r/programming, there used to be things such as posts with 91 comment karma and _0_ downvotes. This stuff doesn't exist anymore, the community has grown, become a lot less homogenous and more 'nay-sayers' have introduced themselves." WRT Reddit what I've heard on the site is that they have an obfuscation system that adds downvotes and hides the current voting position. It would be impossible thus to see that a story had 91 upvotes and no downs as apparent downvotes are automatically added. It's supposed to be part of the system to prevent people from gaming karma scores.
bobbyfive 16y ago
"Note that positive doesn't mean affirming groupthink, or karma whoring (which is hard here but looks possible) but adding to the conversation." That's simply not true. There are plenty of examples of people getting downvoted for having a contrary viewpoint. Groupthink is alive and well on HN.