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We have long ago decided that we don’t let people give away certain rights, even if they do it freely, even if they want to. I can’t work for a business for fre

We have long ago decided that we don’t let people give away certain rights, even if they do it freely, even if they want to. I can’t work for a business for free, or for below minimum wage, even if I call myself an “unpaid intern”. I can’t work for a business as a child (below working age). I can’t ask a business not to withhold income tax from my paycheck, or to not pay their half of the social security tax, or withhold my half. My employer has to pay into the unemployment insurance pool on my behalf. We have these rules because every unscrupulous employer out there has exploited one or more of these ploys at some time in the past, and would gladly do so again. Companies are constantly looking for ways to avoid one or more of these restrictions. One way is to claim someone is a contractor - basically another business - and therefore is responsible for making sure its own employees are treated according to the law (usually there’s only one employee...). This is a constant cat and mouse game. Uber and Lyft claim to be transportation marketplaces where riders and drivers meet up and contract for services, except they dictate every aspect of the transaction, other than when the drivers choose to work. It’s not 100% of the way employees at Wal Mart or McDonalds are treated, but it’s at least 80% there. We have to draw the line somewhere, and the TNC’s have fulfilled almost all of the standard tests for when someone is considered an employee.

Cookingboy 6y ago
>other than when the drivers choose to work. You can't just hand waive away a fundamental difference like that. From my conversation with some Lyft/Uber drivers they really treasure that aspect and they would rather quit if they are forced to be regular employees with dictated working hours.
- URSpider94 6y ago
  Becoming an employee doesn’t necessarily mean you have to work a rigid schedule. There are plenty of employees, like flight attendants, who bid on shifts on a periodic basis, and who have the opportunity to trade or add shifts freely.
  - pembrook 6y ago
    I see you’ve never worked minimum wage jobs before. There are not “plenty” of unskilled jobs that allow you to set your own hours. In fact, all of jobs I had accessible to me before I had a degree had ZERO flexibility on hours. You were scheduled (rarely ever during standard 9 to 5 hours), and if you didn’t show up, you were fired. I would have happily taken a few bucks less than minimum wage for the ability to set my own hours and educate myself. Who are you to tell me I’m being exploited—-as you sit at your 100k+ computer job looking down at me.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
  That rigid schedule talking point sounds like it's made to scare.
deepGem 6y ago
"except they dictate every aspect of the transaction" - I think they do it out of necessity, here in India at least. Ferrying passengers is a very risky business. So protect the passengers, Uber/Lyft have no other option but to kind of police every aspect of the driver - passenger transaction. Despite all that, there were multiple rapes of women in Uber/Ola cars in India, drivers were ghosting Uber/Ola, they have tried to outsmart the routing algorithms by crowding in hot zones, tried to take cash from passengers without running the trip and what not. While I espouse for drivers being treated fairly, whether as employees or contractors it's not that simple to bring in protections for the drivers without monitoring/scrutiny. The contractors/employees of McDonalds are in a very different setting, and their customers are almost at no risk and there is little to no scope for embezzling cash, short of robbing the joint. So the comparison doesn't really hold true.
neosat 6y ago
> other than when the drivers choose to work. That's not true. What about who else they can work for? That's not enforced either. Which other businesses commonly allow people to work when they want, work for whatever competition they want, take any amount of 'vacation' in between? You're fitting something new into an existing category by handwaving away lot of important nuance, when it is exactly this nuance that makes a ton of difference and why the new type of work may not fit into an existing category.
- URSpider94 6y ago
  At least in California, an employer has virtually no say about who you work for in your off hours. If you want to work for McDonald’s 9-5 and Wendy’s 6-midnight, it’s nobody’s business but yours.
  - sida 6y ago
    But while you are working at macdonalds you cannot simultaneously be working for KFC. That’s what a uber/lyft drivers do
    - sixstringtheory 6y ago
      I don’t believe a driver viewing the available riders is “working” any more than someone looking at prices in the apps to ride are “riding” until they accept a fare. People interview at many jobs simultaneously, bid on multiple contracts simultaneously, but they are not _working_ them simultaneously until an agreement is made. So unless a driver has a rider from lyft and a rider from uber in the car at the same time, they are not simultaneously working for both. That being said I don’t know if there is some employment or contract law that makes me wrong, or even just terms laid out by uber or lyft.
      - sida 6y ago
        Right so your point is that the driver is only an employee while on a trip. And while waiting for a trip, the driver is not an employee? I am sure uber/lyft will be more than happy to pay minimum wage if the wage only counts when a trip begins. But the reason the companies are against the law is because the law requires minimum wage while the driver is not driving too. Which means that a driver could actually get 2 minimum wages at the same time while driving for both uber/lyft. But of course that won’t happen. Uber/lyft will ban driving for competitor. Set up shifts such that every driver drives 37.5 hours a week. It is simply not worth the hassle of paying all these benefits for drivers who log in for an hour a day at random times.
Game_Ender 6y ago
> dictate every aspect of the transaction Uber let’s drivers set their own rates in CA [0]. What is also interesting is that before Lyft/Uber many taxi drivers were contractors renting their cars for an hourly rate. With rates set by the government, it’s really not much different than “rideshare”, just less flexible for them and the customer. One issue is the type of market transport is and the variability in demand. You can do just a few Lyft trips, or just 1 and then do something else. CA employment law does not allow “micro shifts” like that, you have to pay the employees for a few hours. With no government restriction the market works itself out, with a large number of people who work a bit at peak supplementing those who are more full time. I think the legislature took the lazy way out, they could of set up rules for minimum compensation, benefits, And worker protection without the rest of the employment baggage. 0 - https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/

Cookingboy 6y ago

>other than when the drivers choose to work. You can't just hand waive away a fundamental difference like that. From my conversation with some Lyft/Uber drivers they really treasure that aspect and they would rather quit if they are forced to be regular employees with dictated working hours.

URSpider94 6y ago
Becoming an employee doesn’t necessarily mean you have to work a rigid schedule. There are plenty of employees, like flight attendants, who bid on shifts on a periodic basis, and who have the opportunity to trade or add shifts freely.
- pembrook 6y ago
  I see you’ve never worked minimum wage jobs before. There are not “plenty” of unskilled jobs that allow you to set your own hours. In fact, all of jobs I had accessible to me before I had a degree had ZERO flexibility on hours. You were scheduled (rarely ever during standard 9 to 5 hours), and if you didn’t show up, you were fired. I would have happily taken a few bucks less than minimum wage for the ability to set my own hours and educate myself. Who are you to tell me I’m being exploited—-as you sit at your 100k+ computer job looking down at me.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
That rigid schedule talking point sounds like it's made to scare.

deepGem 6y ago

"except they dictate every aspect of the transaction" - I think they do it out of necessity, here in India at least. Ferrying passengers is a very risky business. So protect the passengers, Uber/Lyft have no other option but to kind of police every aspect of the driver - passenger transaction. Despite all that, there were multiple rapes of women in Uber/Ola cars in India, drivers were ghosting Uber/Ola, they have tried to outsmart the routing algorithms by crowding in hot zones, tried to take cash from passengers without running the trip and what not. While I espouse for drivers being treated fairly, whether as employees or contractors it's not that simple to bring in protections for the drivers without monitoring/scrutiny. The contractors/employees of McDonalds are in a very different setting, and their customers are almost at no risk and there is little to no scope for embezzling cash, short of robbing the joint. So the comparison doesn't really hold true.

neosat 6y ago

> other than when the drivers choose to work. That's not true. What about who else they can work for? That's not enforced either. Which other businesses commonly allow people to work when they want, work for whatever competition they want, take any amount of 'vacation' in between? You're fitting something new into an existing category by handwaving away lot of important nuance, when it is exactly this nuance that makes a ton of difference and why the new type of work may not fit into an existing category.

URSpider94 6y ago
At least in California, an employer has virtually no say about who you work for in your off hours. If you want to work for McDonald’s 9-5 and Wendy’s 6-midnight, it’s nobody’s business but yours.
- sida 6y ago
  But while you are working at macdonalds you cannot simultaneously be working for KFC. That’s what a uber/lyft drivers do
  - sixstringtheory 6y ago
    I don’t believe a driver viewing the available riders is “working” any more than someone looking at prices in the apps to ride are “riding” until they accept a fare. People interview at many jobs simultaneously, bid on multiple contracts simultaneously, but they are not _working_ them simultaneously until an agreement is made. So unless a driver has a rider from lyft and a rider from uber in the car at the same time, they are not simultaneously working for both. That being said I don’t know if there is some employment or contract law that makes me wrong, or even just terms laid out by uber or lyft.
    - sida 6y ago
      Right so your point is that the driver is only an employee while on a trip. And while waiting for a trip, the driver is not an employee? I am sure uber/lyft will be more than happy to pay minimum wage if the wage only counts when a trip begins. But the reason the companies are against the law is because the law requires minimum wage while the driver is not driving too. Which means that a driver could actually get 2 minimum wages at the same time while driving for both uber/lyft. But of course that won’t happen. Uber/lyft will ban driving for competitor. Set up shifts such that every driver drives 37.5 hours a week. It is simply not worth the hassle of paying all these benefits for drivers who log in for an hour a day at random times.

Game_Ender 6y ago

> dictate every aspect of the transaction Uber let’s drivers set their own rates in CA [0]. What is also interesting is that before Lyft/Uber many taxi drivers were contractors renting their cars for an hourly rate. With rates set by the government, it’s really not much different than “rideshare”, just less flexible for them and the customer. One issue is the type of market transport is and the variability in demand. You can do just a few Lyft trips, or just 1 and then do something else. CA employment law does not allow “micro shifts” like that, you have to pay the employees for a few hours. With no government restriction the market works itself out, with a large number of people who work a bit at peak supplementing those who are more full time. I think the legislature took the lazy way out, they could of set up rules for minimum compensation, benefits, And worker protection without the rest of the employment baggage. 0 - https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/