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I worked for SuperShuttle developing their driver mobile app. I can tell you for a fact that a big reason SuperShuttle failed is because the drivers were indep

I worked for SuperShuttle developing their driver mobile app. I can tell you for a fact that a big reason SuperShuttle failed is because the drivers were independent. They would consistently reject low cost trips and wait it out until they got one "mega" trip so that they only need to actually work for about 3 hours/day. Some days they wouldn't take any trips, just hang out in the van playing Flappy Bird. This was a main issue for the SuperShuttle because they couldn't get their drivers to do adapt when Uber came around, including accepting work that more resembled Uber pool workloads.

jeffbee 6y ago
This is what we call "revealed preference". It doesn't really matter what ten thousand Uber drivers have told you (and some of the supposed first-hand field surveying claimed in this discussion stretches belief). The only thing that matters in the end is how the participants in the market actually behave.
- Nydhal 6y ago
  Actions > Words. Such a simple concept yet many ignore it. Nowadays it's trendy to call such concepts "mental models".
  - SQueeeeeL 6y ago
    True! I use this concept a lot when arguing with people about minimum wage! I think those single Mom's should be happy to have a job, not complaining they can't pay rent! Like they can just learn to code if they don't want to make min wage
    - BoorishBears 6y ago
      I can't tell if this is a joke or someone incredibly out of touch with the reality of poverty (this being HN, there are enough people who fall in the latter group to make it unclear)
      - SQueeeeeL 6y ago
        It's a joke, I'm glad taking "Actions > Words" to it's logical conclusion seemed like someone's real opinion, really tells you about the type of people that frequent this site
- Zak 6y ago
  I think what's happening here is the defined categories don't adequately model reality. An Uber driver is somewhere between the current legal categories of employee and independent contractor. A fully independent contractor like a SuperShuttle driver can treat each fare as a separate contract, pick only the best offers, and generally not provide the company an adequate service level to ensure a reliable stream of customers. Each driver prioritizing their short-term interests keeps that model from being a viable profession in many cases. On the other hand, an employer is required to provide certain benefits to employees, especially if they exceed certain thresholds of hours worked. To make the fixed cost of some of those benefits viable, the employer will usually want to require the employee to work specific hours, and often limits those hours to stay within legal thresholds. It's the flexibility of scheduling I that I think attracts people to gig work. They'll take the ability to cherry-pick the most profitable gigs if given the chance, but it isn't a core requirement. It's probably desirable to add a third category to provide gig workers some protections without shoehorning them into the employee classification, which many of them actively wish to avoid.
  - toddmclaughlin 6y ago
    Very well said. Gig workers are in that nebulous, legally undefined category between employees and contractors.
lathiat 6y ago
This is a problem with Taxi drivers as well. Have had friends too close to the airport miss flights because drivers keep rejecting the fare because it goes to drivers near the airport who want a long trip.
- xapata 6y ago
  I've had taxi drivers yell at me for how close I lived to the airport. Angrily banging the steering wheel. "I waited in line for 2 hours and I get this fucking fare!?" Then they drive maniacally fast, weaving through traffic hoping to catch the tail end of passengers disembarking my flight. Mildly terrifying. Uber and Lyft were so welcome.
  - fellowniusmonk 6y ago
    I have had this exact experience, Taxi's are the worst and there is 0 feedback loop to improve quality. I once had a taxi driver yell at me and ask me why I didn't just take an uber if I live so close to the airport. Good riddance to traditional taxis (in all but a few cities where they are still marginally more convenient in my experience).
  - sails 6y ago
    I had the same thing, but the driver dropped his phone off with a friend that was still "within the airport" as we drove out the airpot so that he didn't lose his virtual place. He was pretty upset with me.
    - NeutronStar 6y ago
      So his employer didn't pay him enough on short trips, so he's mad at the customer. Nice.
  - goostavos 6y ago
    Things I don't miss about cabs: 1. them complaining about short fair or straight up driving off before I could get in because I wasn't going far enough (lesson learned in Vegas: get in before answering questions) 2. The constant, relentless dance about their "credit card machine being broken" "you can pay cash!" "there's an ATM machine inside" Uber and Lyft were god sends when I was traveling a lot for work. click button, get in car, arrive at place. None of the adversarial nonsense.
mancerayder 6y ago
I'm curious what you mean by failed - do you mean in the model and they had to change? California? I'm seeing Supershuttle availability right now (not in California but in the U.S.)
- kyle_martin1 6y ago
  SuperShuttle was bleeding money from subsidizing fares to compete with ride sharing and shrunk 30% YoY for 3 years straight. The SuperShuttle that you see is now just a brand facade and the original business is on a feeding tube.
mikeryan 6y ago
Then the “fix” would be to make the shuttle drivers employees right?
- kyle_martin1 6y ago
  Each van is a separate business franchise. The franchise owner, owned the van and could hire drivers as employees under their franchise. It was more profitable for everybody with this way.
chmod600 6y ago
So lower the price of big trips and raise the price of small trips until thing balance out?
- kyle_martin1 6y ago
  We tried. The drivers revolted when we changed fares because they didn’t want things to change. Remember humans are irrational beings. Most were longtime drivers and knew historical fare. We just couldn’t get them to change their mindset.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
bobloblaw45 6y ago
Did doordash for a few weeks and discovered that this is exactly how the dashers in the community that made "okay" money operated. They turn down deliveries that didn't pay a certain amount and would sit in their car doing nothing if they had to.
neumann 6y ago
I remember seeing off a rental travel van a few miles from LAX. They were a tiny business and had no shuttle service. Next door was a EUROPCAR rental and outside it a bunch of taxis and Ubers. They ALL refused to take me, and EUROPCAR security didn't want me catching their shuttle bus because I want a customer. I had to conspicuously beg them to let me on the bus in front of customers in the service area to not miss my flight.
swc 6y ago
This seems more nuanced than implied here. It sounds as though the 'main issue' wasn't that Super Shuttle couldn't work while letting their drivers be independent, but rather that they couldn't compete on price with a service that didn't. If a business was paying their workers minimum wage and couldn't compete on price with another business that came in and didn't respect minimum wage laws, you wouldn't say the main issue was paying minimum wage. You would say it was the business that didn't respect minimum wage laws. It seems like if all companies treat drivers as independent contractors, then the market will naturally work itself out. Drivers will compete amongst themselves and determine what they are willing to work for, and prices will adapt as needed to support that. However, if some companies don't, then obviously it isn't a level playing field. That will only be exacerbated if the company that doesn't then also further depresses ride prices to the point of operating at a loss. Whether the current legislation actually achieves the goal remains to be seen, but the whole point is to level the playing field. I don't think anyone actually thinks that the way forward is to treat drivers as employees. Instead, I think having to treat drivers as employees is a deterrent to the current way contractor laws are being skirted, with the intent of pushing all companies to treat their drivers as independent contractors in order to level the playing field.
- kyle_martin1 6y ago
  No. It isn’t more nuanced than that. SuperShuttle couldn’t make changes because the drivers irrationally refused to work more for the same pay, even though they knew the company was failing. It really is that simple.
  - nogabebop23 6y ago
    >> because the drivers irrationally refused to work more for the same pay How is this irrational? You offer me $X for Y hours of work. If X/Y gets too small I say "no" and do something with higher utility, even if that's playing flappy bird. I don't really care that my actions destroy the source of this opportunity because I've already rejected it. You are right that this is simple, just not in the way you're interpreting it.

jeffbee 6y ago

This is what we call "revealed preference". It doesn't really matter what ten thousand Uber drivers have told you (and some of the supposed first-hand field surveying claimed in this discussion stretches belief). The only thing that matters in the end is how the participants in the market actually behave.

Nydhal 6y ago
Actions > Words. Such a simple concept yet many ignore it. Nowadays it's trendy to call such concepts "mental models".
- SQueeeeeL 6y ago
  True! I use this concept a lot when arguing with people about minimum wage! I think those single Mom's should be happy to have a job, not complaining they can't pay rent! Like they can just learn to code if they don't want to make min wage
  - BoorishBears 6y ago
    I can't tell if this is a joke or someone incredibly out of touch with the reality of poverty (this being HN, there are enough people who fall in the latter group to make it unclear)
    - SQueeeeeL 6y ago
      It's a joke, I'm glad taking "Actions > Words" to it's logical conclusion seemed like someone's real opinion, really tells you about the type of people that frequent this site
Zak 6y ago
I think what's happening here is the defined categories don't adequately model reality. An Uber driver is somewhere between the current legal categories of employee and independent contractor. A fully independent contractor like a SuperShuttle driver can treat each fare as a separate contract, pick only the best offers, and generally not provide the company an adequate service level to ensure a reliable stream of customers. Each driver prioritizing their short-term interests keeps that model from being a viable profession in many cases. On the other hand, an employer is required to provide certain benefits to employees, especially if they exceed certain thresholds of hours worked. To make the fixed cost of some of those benefits viable, the employer will usually want to require the employee to work specific hours, and often limits those hours to stay within legal thresholds. It's the flexibility of scheduling I that I think attracts people to gig work. They'll take the ability to cherry-pick the most profitable gigs if given the chance, but it isn't a core requirement. It's probably desirable to add a third category to provide gig workers some protections without shoehorning them into the employee classification, which many of them actively wish to avoid.
- toddmclaughlin 6y ago
  Very well said. Gig workers are in that nebulous, legally undefined category between employees and contractors.

lathiat 6y ago

This is a problem with Taxi drivers as well. Have had friends too close to the airport miss flights because drivers keep rejecting the fare because it goes to drivers near the airport who want a long trip.

xapata 6y ago
I've had taxi drivers yell at me for how close I lived to the airport. Angrily banging the steering wheel. "I waited in line for 2 hours and I get this fucking fare!?" Then they drive maniacally fast, weaving through traffic hoping to catch the tail end of passengers disembarking my flight. Mildly terrifying. Uber and Lyft were so welcome.
- fellowniusmonk 6y ago
  I have had this exact experience, Taxi's are the worst and there is 0 feedback loop to improve quality. I once had a taxi driver yell at me and ask me why I didn't just take an uber if I live so close to the airport. Good riddance to traditional taxis (in all but a few cities where they are still marginally more convenient in my experience).
- sails 6y ago
  I had the same thing, but the driver dropped his phone off with a friend that was still "within the airport" as we drove out the airpot so that he didn't lose his virtual place. He was pretty upset with me.
  - NeutronStar 6y ago
    So his employer didn't pay him enough on short trips, so he's mad at the customer. Nice.
- goostavos 6y ago
  Things I don't miss about cabs: 1. them complaining about short fair or straight up driving off before I could get in because I wasn't going far enough (lesson learned in Vegas: get in before answering questions) 2. The constant, relentless dance about their "credit card machine being broken" "you can pay cash!" "there's an ATM machine inside" Uber and Lyft were god sends when I was traveling a lot for work. click button, get in car, arrive at place. None of the adversarial nonsense.

mancerayder 6y ago

I'm curious what you mean by failed - do you mean in the model and they had to change? California? I'm seeing Supershuttle availability right now (not in California but in the U.S.)

kyle_martin1 6y ago
SuperShuttle was bleeding money from subsidizing fares to compete with ride sharing and shrunk 30% YoY for 3 years straight. The SuperShuttle that you see is now just a brand facade and the original business is on a feeding tube.

mikeryan 6y ago

Then the “fix” would be to make the shuttle drivers employees right?

kyle_martin1 6y ago
Each van is a separate business franchise. The franchise owner, owned the van and could hire drivers as employees under their franchise. It was more profitable for everybody with this way.

chmod600 6y ago

So lower the price of big trips and raise the price of small trips until thing balance out?

kyle_martin1 6y ago
We tried. The drivers revolted when we changed fares because they didn’t want things to change. Remember humans are irrational beings. Most were longtime drivers and knew historical fare. We just couldn’t get them to change their mindset.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

bobloblaw45 6y ago

Did doordash for a few weeks and discovered that this is exactly how the dashers in the community that made "okay" money operated. They turn down deliveries that didn't pay a certain amount and would sit in their car doing nothing if they had to.

neumann 6y ago

I remember seeing off a rental travel van a few miles from LAX. They were a tiny business and had no shuttle service. Next door was a EUROPCAR rental and outside it a bunch of taxis and Ubers. They ALL refused to take me, and EUROPCAR security didn't want me catching their shuttle bus because I want a customer. I had to conspicuously beg them to let me on the bus in front of customers in the service area to not miss my flight.

swc 6y ago

This seems more nuanced than implied here. It sounds as though the 'main issue' wasn't that Super Shuttle couldn't work while letting their drivers be independent, but rather that they couldn't compete on price with a service that didn't. If a business was paying their workers minimum wage and couldn't compete on price with another business that came in and didn't respect minimum wage laws, you wouldn't say the main issue was paying minimum wage. You would say it was the business that didn't respect minimum wage laws. It seems like if all companies treat drivers as independent contractors, then the market will naturally work itself out. Drivers will compete amongst themselves and determine what they are willing to work for, and prices will adapt as needed to support that. However, if some companies don't, then obviously it isn't a level playing field. That will only be exacerbated if the company that doesn't then also further depresses ride prices to the point of operating at a loss. Whether the current legislation actually achieves the goal remains to be seen, but the whole point is to level the playing field. I don't think anyone actually thinks that the way forward is to treat drivers as employees. Instead, I think having to treat drivers as employees is a deterrent to the current way contractor laws are being skirted, with the intent of pushing all companies to treat their drivers as independent contractors in order to level the playing field.

kyle_martin1 6y ago
No. It isn’t more nuanced than that. SuperShuttle couldn’t make changes because the drivers irrationally refused to work more for the same pay, even though they knew the company was failing. It really is that simple.
- nogabebop23 6y ago
  >> because the drivers irrationally refused to work more for the same pay How is this irrational? You offer me $X for Y hours of work. If X/Y gets too small I say "no" and do something with higher utility, even if that's playing flappy bird. I don't really care that my actions destroy the source of this opportunity because I've already rejected it. You are right that this is simple, just not in the way you're interpreting it.