5 ms·

The OP seems to attribute the "failure" of bing to common problems associated with Microsoft (in specific) and large companies (in general). With a specific poi

by latch 16y ago

The OP seems to attribute the "failure" of bing to common problems associated with Microsoft (in specific) and large companies (in general). With a specific point that it all started wonderfully, then got corporatized. I'm happy believing that this was the main problem. But...as an end user i don't think Bing was/is ever as as close to Google as the OP seems to think.

kami8844 16y ago
I had to do some web scraping for an application that I recently wrote and only when my app's performance started to rely on the results provided by the various search engines out there, I started to fully appreciate how good Google is. It's just no comparison; in edge cases, misspelled and unconventional searches (where it really matters) Google completely creams the competition. While Bing came closest to providing search results as accurate as Googles it still wasn't at any comparable level, so all in all I agree with your point.
exit 16y ago
why was kami8844's comment instantly flagged? it's really disgusting to see people quietly being blacklisted. --- 1 point by kami8844 0 minutes ago | link [dead] I had to do some web scraping for an application that I recently wrote and only when my app's performance started to rely on the results provided by the various search engines out there, I started to fully appreciate how good Google is. It's just no comparison; in edge cases and unconventional searches (where it really matters) Google completely creams the competition. While Bing came closest to providing search results as accurate as Googles it still wasn't at any comparable level, so all in all I agree with your point. ---
- Joakal 16y ago
  Was the reporter respected or the system assume a new reporter weight is the same as a veteran user to hide it? If so, don't give too much weight to new reporters for flagging.
- gjm11 16y ago
  I wonder whether it's an automatic consequence of having substantial negative karma. (I'm ambivalent about the stealth-blacklisting thing. It's probably the right thing to do with genuinely abusive users. It might be the right thing with people genuinely incapable of contributing much. But I've seen too many cases where someone's comments are all being auto-deaded -- invisibly to them, AIUI -- with no obvious reason why they should deserve it.)
  - jules 16y ago
    Right, the system is far too trigger happy. Instead of showing a newcomer what kind of comments are valued here and possibly gaining a valuable new contributor, the system severely punishes beginner mistakes. We can't reasonably expect that a new user knows what kind of comments are valued because on the rest of the internet such comments are perfectly acceptable. Perhaps something like Quora does would help: before you can use the site you have to do a quiz on what kind of comments are good comments.
    - pohl 16y ago
      Just for counterpoint: it would be easy for new users to figure out what a good post is by reading and paying attention to the scores they get. One gets a sense for what makes one a -4, another a mere zero, or some other a +47.
    - redthrowaway 16y ago
      "Perhaps something like Quora does would help: before you can use the site you have to do a quiz on what kind of comments are good comments." Really? Sorry, but that sounds like a terrible idea. HN is already insular enough, we don't need to start demanding newcomers pass a test before we let them comment.
      - jules 16y ago
        Let's see. There are two groups of people: people who would have passed the test and people who would not have. The people who would not have would most likely be hellbanned after their first 3 comments (and of course people are allowed to take the test as many times as they want). So you lose nothing. By using a test fewer legitimate people get hellbanned. In other words, this is only going to improve the situation. I'm not talking about a difficult test here: just a couple of questions like: Comment: LOL Is this an acceptable comment? Right now people are used to that being an acceptable comment on the rest of the internet. These people currently get hellbanned on HN because other people downvote these comments. It's not a test for testing whether the people are acceptable on HN, it's method of teaching customs and a test for whether people have read the guidelines.
- ricree 16y ago
  Looks like he's a new user that got mostly downvotes on his early comments. In isolation, I can't entirely disagree the downvotes, but it seems to me that the system ought to be more tolerant of people that screw up their first couple posts as long as they were honest contributions (as opposed to spam). Perhaps the ban should be triggered a lot more heavily on flags than downvotes up to a certain number of posts. A karma based ban that makes some sense for people that are consistently bad. But it seems to me that the current ban code doesn't give newcomers enough chance to change based on the feedback they've been given. New users don't have a buffer to fall back on if they make one or two bad posts, and ought to be given more leeway. As long as people are flagging correctly, that should take care of obvious trolls or spam.
- kami8845 16y ago
  Thanks for pointing that out, as others have written below, I'm a new user and while the system here looks pretty similiar to the one at Reddit, the type of comment that is appreciated here seems vastly different. I was kind of surprised to instantly receive 3 downvotes for my first comment that just expressed my happiness to have found this community, and while it was pretty void of content, the rules expressly state that empty comments can be OK if they are positive. I agree that the system is quite a bit too trigger-happy. Being shadowbanned is a pretty shitty spot to be in and I don't think 9 downvotes over 4 comments qualify for such harsh punishment.
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    >I don't think 9 downvotes over 4 comments qualify for such harsh punishment Personally I'd say that depends. If you have a positive comment history then no you sholdn't be banned for a small run of comments that the community finds unhelpful to the conversation. If all of your first comments are downvoted then I suggest you make a new account and wait until you have something positive to say. Note that positive doesn't mean affirming groupthink, or karma whoring (which is hard here but looks possible) but adding to the conversation. An opposing opinion well expressed often won't win a lot of upvotes but it usually gets more ups than downs.
    - dhimes 16y ago
      Part of the problem is that downvoting is used to express disagreement. We have this discussion often on HN (perhaps too often): http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 Note: the following unexpectedly turned into a bit of a rant, with a dose of whining thrown in: Many of us "old-timers" think that downvoting without giving a reason is mostly bad form (the exception is for a rude or obnoxious comment). I've personally noticed an increase in this behavior. I believe that doing so decreases the user experience. I've had plenty of disagreements over the years and have almost always learned something from them (even if it just required me to do a bit of soul-searching). Posts would be painstakingly composed (one of the big complaints we had was that the post-page timed out while we were composing- so we had to result in using a separate editor to compose, then click "reply" and copy-and-paste. But now-- why bother? I've been around a while. I'm on my second (third?) career. Not a hacker extraordinaire by any means, but I'm well educated technically and have maintained my involvement with a broad array of interests (I like to learn new things). I've seen some things, and I'm willing to share- and even be challenged in my own conclusions about them. But when I make a post that the "average HN-er" (age 25, so I hear) may not think is very smart and I immediately get downvoted with no reason given, it sends a signal that HN has changed in a very dramatic way. The site is far less valuable than it used to be.
Diabeetus 16y ago
I don't know how good Bing was, but Google put a lot of work into modernizing it's website after the launch of Bing so maybe they did see it as a threat.
- levesque 16y ago
  Probably they just wanted to make sure they stayed ahead of Bing on all levels. Like Apple is doing right now with the iPad.
encoderer 16y ago
Speaking qualitatively, I disagree. I actually use them interchangeably. When I'm using IE (testing features), if I have to search, I just search from the location bar, which defaults to Bing. I feel like the results are essentially the same and I never recall having trouble finding what I'm looking for in Bing. Though I suppose one huge omission is the date filter. I use that a lot on Google and certainly miss it sometimes on Bing. Most importantly, Google was essentially stagnant for years until Bing came along. Since then they've really upped their game. They cloned Bing image search. They took the context summary in Bing that I loved from the beginning and one-upped it. And I've seen more natural answers in Google to match what Bing set to do from day one. I use and support Bing and you should too. What Bing did to Google is like what Firefox did to IE. It reminded them that they should be innovating still!

by latch 16y ago

kami8844 16y ago

I had to do some web scraping for an application that I recently wrote and only when my app's performance started to rely on the results provided by the various search engines out there, I started to fully appreciate how good Google is. It's just no comparison; in edge cases, misspelled and unconventional searches (where it really matters) Google completely creams the competition. While Bing came closest to providing search results as accurate as Googles it still wasn't at any comparable level, so all in all I agree with your point.

exit 16y ago

why was kami8844's comment instantly flagged? it's really disgusting to see people quietly being blacklisted. --- 1 point by kami8844 0 minutes ago | link [dead] I had to do some web scraping for an application that I recently wrote and only when my app's performance started to rely on the results provided by the various search engines out there, I started to fully appreciate how good Google is. It's just no comparison; in edge cases and unconventional searches (where it really matters) Google completely creams the competition. While Bing came closest to providing search results as accurate as Googles it still wasn't at any comparable level, so all in all I agree with your point. ---

Joakal 16y ago
Was the reporter respected or the system assume a new reporter weight is the same as a veteran user to hide it? If so, don't give too much weight to new reporters for flagging.
gjm11 16y ago
I wonder whether it's an automatic consequence of having substantial negative karma. (I'm ambivalent about the stealth-blacklisting thing. It's probably the right thing to do with genuinely abusive users. It might be the right thing with people genuinely incapable of contributing much. But I've seen too many cases where someone's comments are all being auto-deaded -- invisibly to them, AIUI -- with no obvious reason why they should deserve it.)
- jules 16y ago
  Right, the system is far too trigger happy. Instead of showing a newcomer what kind of comments are valued here and possibly gaining a valuable new contributor, the system severely punishes beginner mistakes. We can't reasonably expect that a new user knows what kind of comments are valued because on the rest of the internet such comments are perfectly acceptable. Perhaps something like Quora does would help: before you can use the site you have to do a quiz on what kind of comments are good comments.
  - pohl 16y ago
    Just for counterpoint: it would be easy for new users to figure out what a good post is by reading and paying attention to the scores they get. One gets a sense for what makes one a -4, another a mere zero, or some other a +47.
  - redthrowaway 16y ago
    "Perhaps something like Quora does would help: before you can use the site you have to do a quiz on what kind of comments are good comments." Really? Sorry, but that sounds like a terrible idea. HN is already insular enough, we don't need to start demanding newcomers pass a test before we let them comment.
    - jules 16y ago
      Let's see. There are two groups of people: people who would have passed the test and people who would not have. The people who would not have would most likely be hellbanned after their first 3 comments (and of course people are allowed to take the test as many times as they want). So you lose nothing. By using a test fewer legitimate people get hellbanned. In other words, this is only going to improve the situation. I'm not talking about a difficult test here: just a couple of questions like: Comment: LOL Is this an acceptable comment? Right now people are used to that being an acceptable comment on the rest of the internet. These people currently get hellbanned on HN because other people downvote these comments. It's not a test for testing whether the people are acceptable on HN, it's method of teaching customs and a test for whether people have read the guidelines.
ricree 16y ago
Looks like he's a new user that got mostly downvotes on his early comments. In isolation, I can't entirely disagree the downvotes, but it seems to me that the system ought to be more tolerant of people that screw up their first couple posts as long as they were honest contributions (as opposed to spam). Perhaps the ban should be triggered a lot more heavily on flags than downvotes up to a certain number of posts. A karma based ban that makes some sense for people that are consistently bad. But it seems to me that the current ban code doesn't give newcomers enough chance to change based on the feedback they've been given. New users don't have a buffer to fall back on if they make one or two bad posts, and ought to be given more leeway. As long as people are flagging correctly, that should take care of obvious trolls or spam.
kami8845 16y ago
Thanks for pointing that out, as others have written below, I'm a new user and while the system here looks pretty similiar to the one at Reddit, the type of comment that is appreciated here seems vastly different. I was kind of surprised to instantly receive 3 downvotes for my first comment that just expressed my happiness to have found this community, and while it was pretty void of content, the rules expressly state that empty comments can be OK if they are positive. I agree that the system is quite a bit too trigger-happy. Being shadowbanned is a pretty shitty spot to be in and I don't think 9 downvotes over 4 comments qualify for such harsh punishment.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  >I don't think 9 downvotes over 4 comments qualify for such harsh punishment Personally I'd say that depends. If you have a positive comment history then no you sholdn't be banned for a small run of comments that the community finds unhelpful to the conversation. If all of your first comments are downvoted then I suggest you make a new account and wait until you have something positive to say. Note that positive doesn't mean affirming groupthink, or karma whoring (which is hard here but looks possible) but adding to the conversation. An opposing opinion well expressed often won't win a lot of upvotes but it usually gets more ups than downs.
  - dhimes 16y ago
    Part of the problem is that downvoting is used to express disagreement. We have this discussion often on HN (perhaps too often): http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 Note: the following unexpectedly turned into a bit of a rant, with a dose of whining thrown in: Many of us "old-timers" think that downvoting without giving a reason is mostly bad form (the exception is for a rude or obnoxious comment). I've personally noticed an increase in this behavior. I believe that doing so decreases the user experience. I've had plenty of disagreements over the years and have almost always learned something from them (even if it just required me to do a bit of soul-searching). Posts would be painstakingly composed (one of the big complaints we had was that the post-page timed out while we were composing- so we had to result in using a separate editor to compose, then click "reply" and copy-and-paste. But now-- why bother? I've been around a while. I'm on my second (third?) career. Not a hacker extraordinaire by any means, but I'm well educated technically and have maintained my involvement with a broad array of interests (I like to learn new things). I've seen some things, and I'm willing to share- and even be challenged in my own conclusions about them. But when I make a post that the "average HN-er" (age 25, so I hear) may not think is very smart and I immediately get downvoted with no reason given, it sends a signal that HN has changed in a very dramatic way. The site is far less valuable than it used to be.

Diabeetus 16y ago

I don't know how good Bing was, but Google put a lot of work into modernizing it's website after the launch of Bing so maybe they did see it as a threat.

levesque 16y ago
Probably they just wanted to make sure they stayed ahead of Bing on all levels. Like Apple is doing right now with the iPad.

encoderer 16y ago

Speaking qualitatively, I disagree. I actually use them interchangeably. When I'm using IE (testing features), if I have to search, I just search from the location bar, which defaults to Bing. I feel like the results are essentially the same and I never recall having trouble finding what I'm looking for in Bing. Though I suppose one huge omission is the date filter. I use that a lot on Google and certainly miss it sometimes on Bing. Most importantly, Google was essentially stagnant for years until Bing came along. Since then they've really upped their game. They cloned Bing image search. They took the context summary in Bing that I loved from the beginning and one-upped it. And I've seen more natural answers in Google to match what Bing set to do from day one. I use and support Bing and you should too. What Bing did to Google is like what Firefox did to IE. It reminded them that they should be innovating still!