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Is the off the record instruction not just re-explaining what they are supposed to be doing? i.e. diversify who you are hiring. I can see that it is annoying b

Is the off the record instruction not just re-explaining what they are supposed to be doing? i.e. diversify who you are hiring. I can see that it is annoying but I don't get the hostility around this stuff. are there many thousands of white males not able to get a job... probably not (at least not due to this). How else are we meant to have more diverse teams if we don't hire diversely? Personally I would take a theoretical 20% hit in productivity as part of male dominated environment to learn what a more diverse environment should look like. Having this density of basically white men is often pretty toxic imho (fyi i am a white male) I see so many "harmless" jokes made by people who literally don't have enough experience to be respectful outside of their gender and race. It also makes me sad that people say "its fine look we have Susan" or whatever.. no, Susan has learned to put up with your bullshit and keep her mouth closed.. and if you think "hey I put up with bullshit too" then that only means you agree your environment is toxic and no amount of white males is fixing it.

raxxorrax 6y ago
If you don't think this to be a problem, I don't see how you could criticize people only hiring certain skin colors, which is probably extremely rare in the western world. I know that bias is the next argument, but it is just as baseless.
- bahlhala 6y ago
  Honestly I find it kind of easier to get on with northern European white males.. because I am one and I hav elots in common with them.. Our parents did similar things, we eat similar foods, we grew up in similar houses.. I find it easier to predict their moods and behaviours etc.. cos they are like me. However, that doesn't mean to say we are in any way right or better than any one else. When i work with people who are different to me it often makes me feel somewhat outside of my comfort zone (not in any kind of major way - just like getting a new pair of slippers or something, it feels a little different to yesterday). I just think we cannot help this at all.. so when i am asked to visualise a new start before they join.. who do i imagine, well mostly someone like me. i mean i have all sorts of practices techniques to mitigate this, but its inherently true, true of all people imho. So we have lots of jobs and areas that are thick with white men.. everything is tailored to what their needs are. start times, lengths of holidays and breaks, how long is taken for parental leave after a child is born, even the temperature of most offices is tuned to middle aged white men. We (white men) dont know what an inclusive environment is.. no single group of people does. so really we have to go for immersion therapy (or fake it till you make it).. we just have to kind of force a more diverse group of people into these roles and see what happens.. all the time trying to be respectful and accommodating. I wanted to work with computers as it was something I saw my dad doing it when i was very young (its not this simple but it almost is).. if our daughters dont see their mothers working in IT why would they put any effort into learning it? Its a chicken and egg scenario to a certain extent and this is basically the only route in we have to change the feedback loop imho. if someone comes up with another idea i am all ears.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    See, if I travel to another culture, I don't expect it to change to my whims. I would think if they don't value their own culture, they probably wouldn't value mine either. I do actually work with many ethnicities and have come to the realization that they are all idiots. There are differences in representation between production and administration, but not because of bias or racism. > so really we have to go for immersion therapy No thanks. You are free to travel though. > We (white men) Jehovah's witnesses tried the same shtick once as they tried to include me in their believes, but we are no group. That would only lead to quarrels. Europe wasn't always as peaceful, even if everyone was pretty pink. > if our daughters dont see their mothers working in IT Honestly I think the situation got worse for women in the last 10 years. Through expectations placed upon them by others and themselves. Formerly it was a rarity but few really noticed it. Now their actions would be put under more scrutiny. Here bias does indeed play a role and some discussion emphasized that it apparently isn't normal for women to be in IT. > we just have to kind of force a more diverse group I fundamentally disagree that anybody needs to be forced. Freedom of association and that thing... Plus, that already happened countless times before and it will happen again.
    - bahlhala 6y ago
      >> so really we have to go for immersion therapy >No thanks. You are free to travel though. I am referring to large organisations having hiring policies that encourage or force more diverse hiring.. immersion in a more diverse workplace (but still representative of the area you live in) >> if our daughters dont see their mothers working in IT >Honestly I think the situation got worse for women in the last 10 years. Through expectations placed upon them by others and themselves. Formerly it was a rarity but few really noticed it. Now their actions would be put under more scrutiny. Here bias does indeed play a role and some discussion emphasized that it apparently isn't normal for women to be in IT. So its bad but we wont bother trying to do anything about it? >> we just have to kind of force a more diverse group >I fundamentally disagree that anybody needs to be forced. Freedom of association and that thing... Plus, that already happened countless times before and it will happen again. You totally have the freedom not to work at IBM though? whats your problem, just find somewhere that doesn't have and diversity policies, is roaring sausage fest then dive right in and never look back! its not like any of this really restricts white males, its just some companies saying that's not what they want so there is an extra value to hiring something other than a white male. You cannot persecute those with huge advantages, that's not persecution that's more like regression to the mean. calling it persecution is kind of embarrassing imho. i'm a big boy i can handle that someone who is less skilled of experienced but has a different perspective could be a better investment for an organisation - after all its possible to gain skills and experience.
throwaway_35345 6y ago
But I'm an individual. You're not denying an abstract concept of 'white men' jobs. You're denying me a job. Just like diverse candidates I also need a job. Just like diverse candidates I also need to house and feed my family. Just like diverse candidates I aspire to get promoted. I can't get my head around why people think it's ok to not let me try for an opportunity because I'm a white man. I can't understand how people can't see this is wrong.
- bahlhala 6y ago
  i'm not denying you a job.. you are less valuable to me as i have lots of your type of voice already. And to be clear every issue you have diverse candidates have plus loads more. the only issue you might have that they don't, is that people may wrongly assume you don't know pain or the feeling of being powerless or trampled on... i know it shity to be a human sometime, regardless of race or gender. I think there are probably enough jobs in tech for everyone though.. maybe that is naive but i only see shortages anywhere i look. if you don't get into google or IBM or whatever.. that's not unable to get a job, its just not getting that job. And if there happens not to be enough work to go around where you are, i am really genuinely sorry - i don't mean to make light of the struggles, but it also means it was hard for that other person who did get the job.
  - throwaway_35345 6y ago
    > you are less valuable to me as i have lots of your type of voice already But you didn't wait to hear my voice. You didn't let me open my mouth. You turned me down on how I looked not what I had to say. You don't know anything about what life experience I have and what unique points of view I can bring you. > And to be clear every issue you have diverse candidates have plus loads more. Nobody is openly, legally and systematically denying them the opportunity to prove themselves capable of a job based on the color of their skin. If they're denied based on the color of their skin they can challenge that in the courts. I can't. > I think there are probably enough jobs in tech for everyone though.. What if more companies start banning hiring white men? What if all the Google-tier companies do, so I can't get any job above a certain salary level?
Wolfenstein98k 6y ago
This reads like you don't see individuals, you just see representatives of racial and gender groups. That's the same vibe I get from racists and sexists. What is the fundamental difference between these essentialising, group-identity-based views?
- dleslie 6y ago
  > That's the same vibe I get from racists and sexists. The vibe you're detecting is prejudice. They are exhibiting prejudice against individuals on the basis of immutable traits like gender and ethnicity.
  - bahlhala 6y ago
    I think of it as we can see its not right just now and there are no other idea on the table. I may just be racist or sexist though.. however i dont know why i would give a shit if that was the case?
    - dleslie 6y ago
      It's possible to be self-aware of one's own faults and want to change, but still exhibit the errant behaviour.
      - bahlhala 6y ago
        you are not explaining why i would care though? and i have not seen a single alternative posted by anyone here, so all the argumnts against seem rather hollow and just self serving. blocking making playing field fairer as you wont be the one to benefit from the increased fairness. I also think that people are missing the point that the entire work environment is tuned to a specific group of people.. which is not healthy. that specific group of people are not going to actively de-tune their environment for potential future hires that they dont even have metrics to measure how tuned they are. the only solution i can see is to get those other people in, see what need changing, change that.. wait a full generation and re-evaluate. How do propose getting more diversity without some kind of support or appreciation of the value of the under represented? and to those thinking of themselves before the wider picture this will always seem "unfair". If you were watching over some kids and you had not noticed but for an hour one kid had been bullying other kids to achieve a huge lead over them in the game they were playing. so you step and stop the bullying.. great. but where is the incentive for the other kids to keep playing together if the historical effects of the bullying are not addressed?

raxxorrax 6y ago

If you don't think this to be a problem, I don't see how you could criticize people only hiring certain skin colors, which is probably extremely rare in the western world. I know that bias is the next argument, but it is just as baseless.

bahlhala 6y ago
Honestly I find it kind of easier to get on with northern European white males.. because I am one and I hav elots in common with them.. Our parents did similar things, we eat similar foods, we grew up in similar houses.. I find it easier to predict their moods and behaviours etc.. cos they are like me. However, that doesn't mean to say we are in any way right or better than any one else. When i work with people who are different to me it often makes me feel somewhat outside of my comfort zone (not in any kind of major way - just like getting a new pair of slippers or something, it feels a little different to yesterday). I just think we cannot help this at all.. so when i am asked to visualise a new start before they join.. who do i imagine, well mostly someone like me. i mean i have all sorts of practices techniques to mitigate this, but its inherently true, true of all people imho. So we have lots of jobs and areas that are thick with white men.. everything is tailored to what their needs are. start times, lengths of holidays and breaks, how long is taken for parental leave after a child is born, even the temperature of most offices is tuned to middle aged white men. We (white men) dont know what an inclusive environment is.. no single group of people does. so really we have to go for immersion therapy (or fake it till you make it).. we just have to kind of force a more diverse group of people into these roles and see what happens.. all the time trying to be respectful and accommodating. I wanted to work with computers as it was something I saw my dad doing it when i was very young (its not this simple but it almost is).. if our daughters dont see their mothers working in IT why would they put any effort into learning it? Its a chicken and egg scenario to a certain extent and this is basically the only route in we have to change the feedback loop imho. if someone comes up with another idea i am all ears.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  See, if I travel to another culture, I don't expect it to change to my whims. I would think if they don't value their own culture, they probably wouldn't value mine either. I do actually work with many ethnicities and have come to the realization that they are all idiots. There are differences in representation between production and administration, but not because of bias or racism. > so really we have to go for immersion therapy No thanks. You are free to travel though. > We (white men) Jehovah's witnesses tried the same shtick once as they tried to include me in their believes, but we are no group. That would only lead to quarrels. Europe wasn't always as peaceful, even if everyone was pretty pink. > if our daughters dont see their mothers working in IT Honestly I think the situation got worse for women in the last 10 years. Through expectations placed upon them by others and themselves. Formerly it was a rarity but few really noticed it. Now their actions would be put under more scrutiny. Here bias does indeed play a role and some discussion emphasized that it apparently isn't normal for women to be in IT. > we just have to kind of force a more diverse group I fundamentally disagree that anybody needs to be forced. Freedom of association and that thing... Plus, that already happened countless times before and it will happen again.
  - bahlhala 6y ago
    >> so really we have to go for immersion therapy >No thanks. You are free to travel though. I am referring to large organisations having hiring policies that encourage or force more diverse hiring.. immersion in a more diverse workplace (but still representative of the area you live in) >> if our daughters dont see their mothers working in IT >Honestly I think the situation got worse for women in the last 10 years. Through expectations placed upon them by others and themselves. Formerly it was a rarity but few really noticed it. Now their actions would be put under more scrutiny. Here bias does indeed play a role and some discussion emphasized that it apparently isn't normal for women to be in IT. So its bad but we wont bother trying to do anything about it? >> we just have to kind of force a more diverse group >I fundamentally disagree that anybody needs to be forced. Freedom of association and that thing... Plus, that already happened countless times before and it will happen again. You totally have the freedom not to work at IBM though? whats your problem, just find somewhere that doesn't have and diversity policies, is roaring sausage fest then dive right in and never look back! its not like any of this really restricts white males, its just some companies saying that's not what they want so there is an extra value to hiring something other than a white male. You cannot persecute those with huge advantages, that's not persecution that's more like regression to the mean. calling it persecution is kind of embarrassing imho. i'm a big boy i can handle that someone who is less skilled of experienced but has a different perspective could be a better investment for an organisation - after all its possible to gain skills and experience.

throwaway_35345 6y ago

But I'm an individual. You're not denying an abstract concept of 'white men' jobs. You're denying me a job. Just like diverse candidates I also need a job. Just like diverse candidates I also need to house and feed my family. Just like diverse candidates I aspire to get promoted. I can't get my head around why people think it's ok to not let me try for an opportunity because I'm a white man. I can't understand how people can't see this is wrong.

bahlhala 6y ago
i'm not denying you a job.. you are less valuable to me as i have lots of your type of voice already. And to be clear every issue you have diverse candidates have plus loads more. the only issue you might have that they don't, is that people may wrongly assume you don't know pain or the feeling of being powerless or trampled on... i know it shity to be a human sometime, regardless of race or gender. I think there are probably enough jobs in tech for everyone though.. maybe that is naive but i only see shortages anywhere i look. if you don't get into google or IBM or whatever.. that's not unable to get a job, its just not getting that job. And if there happens not to be enough work to go around where you are, i am really genuinely sorry - i don't mean to make light of the struggles, but it also means it was hard for that other person who did get the job.
- throwaway_35345 6y ago
  > you are less valuable to me as i have lots of your type of voice already But you didn't wait to hear my voice. You didn't let me open my mouth. You turned me down on how I looked not what I had to say. You don't know anything about what life experience I have and what unique points of view I can bring you. > And to be clear every issue you have diverse candidates have plus loads more. Nobody is openly, legally and systematically denying them the opportunity to prove themselves capable of a job based on the color of their skin. If they're denied based on the color of their skin they can challenge that in the courts. I can't. > I think there are probably enough jobs in tech for everyone though.. What if more companies start banning hiring white men? What if all the Google-tier companies do, so I can't get any job above a certain salary level?

Wolfenstein98k 6y ago

This reads like you don't see individuals, you just see representatives of racial and gender groups. That's the same vibe I get from racists and sexists. What is the fundamental difference between these essentialising, group-identity-based views?

dleslie 6y ago
> That's the same vibe I get from racists and sexists. The vibe you're detecting is prejudice. They are exhibiting prejudice against individuals on the basis of immutable traits like gender and ethnicity.
- bahlhala 6y ago
  I think of it as we can see its not right just now and there are no other idea on the table. I may just be racist or sexist though.. however i dont know why i would give a shit if that was the case?
  - dleslie 6y ago
    It's possible to be self-aware of one's own faults and want to change, but still exhibit the errant behaviour.
    - bahlhala 6y ago
      you are not explaining why i would care though? and i have not seen a single alternative posted by anyone here, so all the argumnts against seem rather hollow and just self serving. blocking making playing field fairer as you wont be the one to benefit from the increased fairness. I also think that people are missing the point that the entire work environment is tuned to a specific group of people.. which is not healthy. that specific group of people are not going to actively de-tune their environment for potential future hires that they dont even have metrics to measure how tuned they are. the only solution i can see is to get those other people in, see what need changing, change that.. wait a full generation and re-evaluate. How do propose getting more diversity without some kind of support or appreciation of the value of the under represented? and to those thinking of themselves before the wider picture this will always seem "unfair". If you were watching over some kids and you had not noticed but for an hour one kid had been bullying other kids to achieve a huge lead over them in the game they were playing. so you step and stop the bullying.. great. but where is the incentive for the other kids to keep playing together if the historical effects of the bullying are not addressed?