5 ms·

WTF ... they are using inmates to fight wild fires ???.

lm28469 6y ago
13th amendment of the US constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, >>> except as a punishment for crime <<< whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Slavery is legal as long as it concerns criminal, that's why the US prison system is one of the most fucked up of any first world countries.
- mantap 6y ago
  To be fair if they didn't write that then forcing convicted persons to do any work as part of their rehabilitation would be illegal, for instance community service sentences. A constitution provides the bare minimum rights. The nitty gritty should be dealt with in higher level more mutable law. It's the complete dysfunction of the law making bodies that is the problem.
  - krageon 6y ago
    You could very easily say "you can do community service or serve jail time" and not have slavery in the picture at all.
    - mantap 6y ago
      And what if they say "you can do community service or get 20 years in jail"? If you allow that kind of choice there's no difference to the status quo, it's just window dressing. Constitutions are not the right place to put laws that need to updated.
      - viraptor 6y ago
        That's part of the court setting the sentence though. There are already maximum times for imprisonment set in law, so I don't think your scenario is realistic.
        mantap 6y ago
        If it's interpreted as permissible to threaten someone with prison if they don't do community service, then a constitutional prohibition of convicts being forced to work is nugatory. And if it's interpreted as impermissible then you just banned community service.
  - kwhitefoot 6y ago
    Other countries (for instance the UK) with laws absolutely banning slavery and indentured servitude manage to include community service sentences.
aaron695 6y ago
Very cool isn't it. Straight from a movie. Inmates love the chance to do the exciting work. They have to earn the right as you'd expect, being in demand. They also get to give back to society and it's good for their mental health. They are in the same boat as anyone who eventually leaves prison though, with work and life being hard. But that's nothing to do with this, that's about how we also have to organise opportunities for when all inmates leave. Lots of media on it, obviously it's normally male inmates, but - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/31/magazine/the-incarcerated-women-who-fight-californias-wildfires.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/31/magazine/the-incarcerated... https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2281241/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2281241/
NicoJuicy 6y ago
2$ per hour...
- Fjolsvith 6y ago
  Popular saying in prison: "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
AlchemistCamp 6y ago
California did that during the 2014 wild fires too... and paid them $2/day. I still can't understand how people tolerate this or how it's not a top political issue. http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/11/20/prisoner-labor http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/11/20/prisoner-labor
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Fjolsvith 6y ago
  As one who has been through both state and federal prison, I can attest that an inmate doesn't have to work if they don't want to. There are some privileges lost, and of course, if there is no alternative income, you truly know what it is to go without. Also, you don't have to work any job they assign. An inmate can choose to be a yard or hall orderly (janitor) or work in the kitchen or laundry. I earned enough each month to have a soda and candy bar daily, a quart of ice cream weekly, and enough disposable money to get comfortable sweat pants and shirts and then a book every month. (I played D&D, so those books were about $32 with shipping.) I worked in the laundry, then the commissary (prison store). While in the store, I took a drafting course and upon graduation, I became a tutor for that course. At the next prison, I worked in the Electrical maintenance shop until the prison Engineer discovered I could draft, and then I drew blueprints. The tutor and draftsman jobs were very cushy and I earned about $120/month. Plus, I had a side hustle at both of them where I could use a photocopier to make copies for other inmates that weren't allowed in the law library. And, if you can get a hustle selling something like cigarettes you can make upwards of $10000 a month.
  - teachrdan 6y ago
    It depends on where you are imprisoned. In Angola prison, in Louisiana, "inmates at Angola, once cleared by the prison doctor, can be forced to work under threat of punishment as severe as solitary confinement. Legally, this labor may be totally uncompensated; more typically inmates are paid meagerly—as little as two cents per hour—for their full-time work in the fields, manufacturing warehouses, or kitchens." It's also the case that federal prisons are usually better than state prisons. In terms of living conditions, respect for basic human rights, and access to resources for recreation and rehabilitation, federal low- and minimimum-security prisons are probably the best places to be incarcerated in the US. (although that's about as faint as praise gets) https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-labor-in-america/406177/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-...
throwaway_obvi 6y ago
They volunteer they aren't forced. It looks good and is legitimately bad ass. I worked with a bunch prisoners as part of a probation before judgment deal ( not in ca though) and a lot of them are bored and will volunteer for all types of stuff
Scarblac 6y ago
Yes and when they leave prison after their sentence and apply to become professional firefighters, they aren't allowed, because they're convicted felons. (or so I read on Reddit one day)

13th amendment of the US constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, >>> except as a punishment for crime <<< whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Slavery is legal as long as it concerns criminal, that's why the US prison system is one of the most fucked up of any first world countries.

mantap 6y ago
To be fair if they didn't write that then forcing convicted persons to do any work as part of their rehabilitation would be illegal, for instance community service sentences. A constitution provides the bare minimum rights. The nitty gritty should be dealt with in higher level more mutable law. It's the complete dysfunction of the law making bodies that is the problem.
- krageon 6y ago
  You could very easily say "you can do community service or serve jail time" and not have slavery in the picture at all.
  - mantap 6y ago
    And what if they say "you can do community service or get 20 years in jail"? If you allow that kind of choice there's no difference to the status quo, it's just window dressing. Constitutions are not the right place to put laws that need to updated.
    - viraptor 6y ago
      That's part of the court setting the sentence though. There are already maximum times for imprisonment set in law, so I don't think your scenario is realistic.
      - mantap 6y ago
        If it's interpreted as permissible to threaten someone with prison if they don't do community service, then a constitutional prohibition of convicts being forced to work is nugatory. And if it's interpreted as impermissible then you just banned community service.
- kwhitefoot 6y ago
  Other countries (for instance the UK) with laws absolutely banning slavery and indentured servitude manage to include community service sentences.

aaron695 6y ago

Very cool isn't it. Straight from a movie. Inmates love the chance to do the exciting work. They have to earn the right as you'd expect, being in demand. They also get to give back to society and it's good for their mental health. They are in the same boat as anyone who eventually leaves prison though, with work and life being hard. But that's nothing to do with this, that's about how we also have to organise opportunities for when all inmates leave. Lots of media on it, obviously it's normally male inmates, but - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/31/magazine/the-incarcerated-women-who-fight-californias-wildfires.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/31/magazine/the-incarcerated... https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2281241/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2281241/

NicoJuicy 6y ago

2$ per hour...

Fjolsvith 6y ago
Popular saying in prison: "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

AlchemistCamp 6y ago

California did that during the 2014 wild fires too... and paid them $2/day. I still can't understand how people tolerate this or how it's not a top political issue. http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/11/20/prisoner-labor http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/11/20/prisoner-labor

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Fjolsvith 6y ago
As one who has been through both state and federal prison, I can attest that an inmate doesn't have to work if they don't want to. There are some privileges lost, and of course, if there is no alternative income, you truly know what it is to go without. Also, you don't have to work any job they assign. An inmate can choose to be a yard or hall orderly (janitor) or work in the kitchen or laundry. I earned enough each month to have a soda and candy bar daily, a quart of ice cream weekly, and enough disposable money to get comfortable sweat pants and shirts and then a book every month. (I played D&D, so those books were about $32 with shipping.) I worked in the laundry, then the commissary (prison store). While in the store, I took a drafting course and upon graduation, I became a tutor for that course. At the next prison, I worked in the Electrical maintenance shop until the prison Engineer discovered I could draft, and then I drew blueprints. The tutor and draftsman jobs were very cushy and I earned about $120/month. Plus, I had a side hustle at both of them where I could use a photocopier to make copies for other inmates that weren't allowed in the law library. And, if you can get a hustle selling something like cigarettes you can make upwards of $10000 a month.
- teachrdan 6y ago
  It depends on where you are imprisoned. In Angola prison, in Louisiana, "inmates at Angola, once cleared by the prison doctor, can be forced to work under threat of punishment as severe as solitary confinement. Legally, this labor may be totally uncompensated; more typically inmates are paid meagerly—as little as two cents per hour—for their full-time work in the fields, manufacturing warehouses, or kitchens." It's also the case that federal prisons are usually better than state prisons. In terms of living conditions, respect for basic human rights, and access to resources for recreation and rehabilitation, federal low- and minimimum-security prisons are probably the best places to be incarcerated in the US. (although that's about as faint as praise gets) https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-labor-in-america/406177/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-...

throwaway_obvi 6y ago

They volunteer they aren't forced. It looks good and is legitimately bad ass. I worked with a bunch prisoners as part of a probation before judgment deal ( not in ca though) and a lot of them are bored and will volunteer for all types of stuff

Scarblac 6y ago

Yes and when they leave prison after their sentence and apply to become professional firefighters, they aren't allowed, because they're convicted felons. (or so I read on Reddit one day)