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OpenStreetMap treasurer here to jump on the tangent. Hi! Apple's focus is on maximising profit, and ours is on maximising mapping and the width of our membersh

• nanna 6y ago
  I'm happy for OSM, that's great for you and in turn the community. But what about small open source projects? One-person projects where the idea of having several people working on securing legal non-profit status and then acquiring non-profit signing certificates from Apple is for all intents and purposes impossible? And certainly not worth just coughing up the annual $99 fee (+tax) to Apple? $99+ every year is a lot of money to an independent open source developer who's in most cases losing money for their work. The fact that a company worth $2 trillion is demanding it - it's really beyond outrageous.
  • pjmlp 6y ago
    Outrageous is the entitlement of the current generations for not paying for their tools. Many of us used to pay for every single piece of software that we had to run on top of our already expensive computer around 2000 euros on today's money.
    • AriaMinaei 6y ago
      This isn’t about not wanting to pay. It’s about being forced to use a tool in spite of much better possible alternatives. If apple allowed SSL-style certification, I’m sure cheaper and better alternatives (similar to LetsEncrypt) would prop up.
    • nanna 6y ago
      This is a nice example of what a logician calls a false cause: your conclusion (definition of outrageous) isn't supported by your premise (how much you used to pay for kit). It's also a straw man, since I was talking about an OS developer wanting to publish their software, and you're attempting to sink it by portraying it as referring to a consumer wanting free stuff. The subject of your conclusion, 'current generations', is also so vague as to be redundant. Current generations who are alive? Generations of 21st century? Of modernity? Of the West? I'm afraid this is not a very good HN post.
      • pjmlp 6y ago
        Like 1000 euros per year for a MSDN Professional license, or the required certification from several vendors that have to be renewed every couple years.
        • Spivak 6y ago
          Or having to pay Red Hat for support to get access to their KB, get updates, and pay separate licenses if you want any of their premium software offerings. Or having to shell out for console dev kits and game engines. And the embedded software world is even worse. The exception is being able realistically develop for a platform without little/no expense. People really are spoiled by FOSS tooling.
          • UnFleshedOne 6y ago
            That the exact purpose of all the FOSS tooling -- to make tools free, so more things can get created? Make all FOSS paid and enforce the licensing and you will bankrupt a lot of small commercial companies that rely on them too. Then really a few giants will remain.
          • GoblinSlayer 6y ago
            Imagine complaining about accessible technology. Corporations can't find the bottom of their misanthropy.
        • quanticle 6y ago
    • simion314 6y ago
      your perspective is limited IMO, for example you have small tools like a save cleaner utility for The Sims3 , some person made this tool in Java in his free time and shared it for free with the community, why should this dev pay Apple. There are people that make Visual novels,text based games and other indie stuff(without using Apple tools most are Python,Java or Web tech) for free or a few bucks, I think they would not pay the Apple tax and either not support Mac at all or link to some instructions to workaround this limits while it is possible.
      • alickz 6y ago
        Especially since Apple should _want_ you making free tools for their platform, it directly increases the value of their systems. How many people stick with iOS because of all the apps they like, which may not be available on Android.
      • pjmlp 6y ago
        Before Java was a thing, that utility would have been written in Turbo Pascal, Quick Basic, Visual Basic, C, C++ compiler, none of them available for free. At minimum one would need the Shareware or PD disks tax to get hold of some similar compiler.
        • smegger001 6y ago
          or use a free (libre or gratis) compiler. GNU Compiler Collection was released over three decades ago, or the BSD licensed Portable C Compiler that was initially released over forty years ago, as for Basic many operating systems had a basic interpreter or compiler built in.
          • pjmlp 6y ago
            When it became something usable on PCs we are already talking about past Windows 98.
            • cesarb 6y ago
    • zeveb 6y ago
      > Outrageous is the entitlement of the current generations for not paying for their tools. Sure, but in the case of an open-source developer working on macOS, he has already paid for his operating system; if he is using GCC, he has already paid everything the GCC developers require; why then must he pay extra money to Apple in order for other people to run his software in a straightforward manner on their machines (or, in the future, at all)? How is Apple even a party when two people wish to transact, when one writes and compiles free software on his hardware (paid for) and software (paid for) and the other runs it on his hardware (paid for) and software (paid for)?
      • pjmlp 6y ago
        Because traditionally compilers for a specific OS were extra pay. Ironically that you mentioned GCC, it only came to be, because Sun made their development tools an additional payment to the base Solaris price.
        • smegger001 6y ago
          You do realize the first thing most admins did after installing Solaris workstations was to install the free BSD utils?
          • pjmlp 6y ago
            No, because I did UNIX administration during late 90's and that wasn't a thing. DG/UX, Aix, HP-UX, Tru64, Solaris, and some Linux boxes ironically not considered serious enough for production deployments.
        • GoblinSlayer 6y ago
          Historically free software follows proprietary software because proprietary vendors can't contain their greed and mandate free software, it happened to GNU, git, nextcloud, many times over and over.
    • LocalH 6y ago
      You sound like the people against student loan reform because “I had to pay mine back, why shouldn’t they”. That’s peak entitlement, demanding others suffer because you did.
      • pjmlp 6y ago
        Entitlement is wanting stuff for free, quite the opposite.
        • mitchdoogle 6y ago
          It's not entitlement but it is harmful jealousy.
      • tangjurine 6y ago
        Peak privilege, maybe?
      • mitchdoogle 6y ago
        That's just jealousy
    • cesarb 6y ago
      This is not about paying for a tool. This USD 99 is a tax paid to Apple to be allowed to distribute the software you wrote, regardless of which tool you used to write it. It could be written with a free tool, it could be written with an expensive tool, it doesn't matter; everyone who wants to distribute software to run on macOS has to pay that tax.
• IndySun 6y ago
  Interjecting a side note - while you're here.... a building nr me, was a pub 15 years ago, then it was empty for 5 years, until it became a convenience store. It's still listed as a pub, 2 years after I, and others, have sent corrections. I'd love to love OSM but.... Apologies for the hijack... Back to the main issue with right click.....
  • benhurmarcel 6y ago
    OSM works like Wikipedia. There's no company looking at notes, it's just volunteers. You can also do the modification yourself, it's quite easy, you just need an account. For that particular case, if you post the URL or location I can take a look if you want.
    • IndySun 6y ago
      In which case I'll make an account! Thanks for putting me right. So there's no point (is there?) letting any old people send in corrections, and waiting years...?
      • johannes1234321 6y ago
        In some regions you have active mappers looking more at notes, in other areas less. Also many mappers would want to verify before applying the note ... in the end you mostly have many volunteers with their individual intrinsic motivation.
      • benhurmarcel 6y ago
        It is useful to report problems as map notes on the website. Less useful than fixing it yourself obviously, but many regions have regular mappers that look through the notes from time to time. So it helps if there are regular contributors caring about the area.
      • tialaramex 6y ago
        Actually doing mapping ideally requires a bit more understanding than a map user might want to acquire. So it may make sense to provide a correction and then let people with more expertise apply their knowledge to the problem, rather than stumble about and maybe make more work for somebody else. Perhaps you notice that (as a gross example too large to be likely) the big field a few kilometres away from you that's used to fly aeroplanes isn't labelled on OSM. You don't know much about maps or aeroplanes, but it's not on there. If you go into an OSM editor and tell it that's an airport you're probably unintentionally adding false information. Because it probably isn't an airport, there's a good chance OSM cares exactly what it is, like maybe it distinguishes controlled and uncontrolled airfields, maybe it would prefer you label the area one way, and then also label any marked runway (perhaps there isn't one) separately. There's a Wiki full of instructions about the best way to label things. Sometimes there are also local conventions, maybe the Wiki says not to distinguish uncontrolled airfields, but in your area a convention has arisen to add a specific marker for them. All this is stuff that an editor ideally should know, but a random person who thinks "Hey why isn't this on the map" doesn't know.