20 ms·

as an ex-apple employee and long time developer, glad people start to see apple is an open source foo creating prisons of software to lure the obsessive brand f

as an ex-apple employee and long time developer, glad people start to see apple is an open source foo creating prisons of software to lure the obsessive brand fanatics and get a fee selling them as users to the other parties. - in apple tech, the users are volunteer products where servicing them gets a myriad of monetization, notarization etc. - hope open source starts to ignore apple platforms as a target at some point. Being "*nixy" and presence of "brew" etc gave the false impression apple is in the open source camp.

saagarjha 6y ago
I don’t think anyone really had that impression, especially since most of the macOS Forge projects got spun off. But you can’t deny they made (and in many ways, still do) good UNIX machines.
- withinboredom 6y ago
  > But you can’t deny they made (and in many ways, still do) good UNIX machines. If you mean the hardware, it's OK I guess. It still lacks basic computer features like PXE booting (unless you count the proprietary "netboot"). You can't really install much on it or use it for anything but MacOS, which really isn't that great, IMHO. For the same cost as a MacBook, I got a really nice PC laptop with double the specs that runs linux flawlessly. I can also update the CPU, GPU, and RAM, which I can't do with a macbook.
  - RMPR 6y ago
    > For the same cost as a MacBook, I got a really nice PC laptop with double the specs that runs linux flawlessly. I can also update the CPU, GPU, and RAM, which I can't do with a macbook. My go to Laptop these days is the Lenovo ThinkPad X1 (either carbon or Yoga) very nicely built with a great keyboard, I hardly (if ever) heard the fan noise and except on a couple of models where the fingerprint driver isn't present, it works flawlessly ootb with Linux. https://youtube.com/watch?v=v6X1-DxXBEs https://youtube.com/watch?v=v6X1-DxXBEs
    - vetinari 6y ago
      I'm still wondering what Lenovo were thinking when they came with Gen8 X1. They used Comet Lake instead of Ice Lake - that results in things like HDMI port supporting only 1.4 (i.e. no 4k@60 there). It makes their current non competitive with 2020 XPS13 or 2020 MBP13, that do come with Ice Lake.
  - beagle3 6y ago
    Which model is that? It used to be that way up until 5 years ago or so in my experience, but it changed to be “comparable specs with comparable price” - except that the options from Apple are very limited.
    - fomine3 6y ago
      Lower spec model is comparable price but higher spec model or CTO option is still expensive. (iMac 27 is exceptional for the display)
arkh 6y ago
> glad people start to see apple is an open source foo creating prisons of software People have been saying it since day 1 of the Apple App Store. It's called a walled garden and it should be attacked as the abuse of a dominant position it is.
- bluescrn 6y ago
  But when a company makes such shiny and popular devices they seem exempt from any usual criticisms of hypercapitalism and near-monopoly power
  - simonh 6y ago
    Near monopoly power. We are talking about Macs still, right? Oh I'm against this latest erosion of the ability to run whatever code you want on a Mac. This is one of the reasons I just got one of the new Intel iMacs, because I can see this coming on the ARM side. It's their product though, they legitimately get a monopoly on what features it has, and I don't have any right to tell them how to design it. That's histrionics. There is a legitimate case to be made though as customers as to how we would like to see the product develop. I'm behind that effort 100%.
    - _qulr 6y ago
      > Near monopoly power. We are talking about Macs still, right? The problem is that there's only one Apple Developer Program for both iOS and macOS. If you get kicked out of the developer program for reasons related to the iOS App Store, you're also kicked out of independent Mac distribution outside the App Store. You no longer have true independence on the Mac either.
      - simonh 6y ago
        Well, you're using someone else's products (dev tools, compilers, OS libraries) you buy and license from them under certain commercial terms. If you don't like the terms, don't buy them. And to be crystal clear, that's the approach I am personally going to take. I carved off a TB partition and installed Windows 10 and WSL 2 on my new iMac and it runs like a dream. I still need MacOS, and I'll be installing Virtualbox for some stuff. If the Mac gets to the point where I can't run all the applications and tools I need, I'll miss the hardware and the OS and some apps, but I'll jump ship. I hope they listen to us, but I intend to ask and argue, not tell or coerce through legal action.
raxxorrax 6y ago
I would never develop against an OS like that. Far too many security risks. MacOS still has < 10% market share and I believe that number won't go up too much in the near future at least. The level of rationalization of these lock in practices is just sad to be honest, fully neglecting how software becomes more accessible. Even signed apps have been victims of malware attacks and I do think the check is primarily to ensure the developer has paid their Apple tax. It isn't that high, but I don't think I want to spend it. If it normalized, Apple will surely increase it and developers would have absolutely no handle to protest.
- cesarb 6y ago
  > I do think the check is primarily to ensure the developer has paid their Apple tax I think the true reason for the check is not money, but control. They want to control what software runs on "their" platform. For historical reasons, they don't have that control on desktops/laptops yet (but they already have it on phones).
- thunkpad 6y ago
  If you're developing in the right sector, MacOS has a market that's selected to be lucrative. I don't think that's a particularly good thing, but it does explain how <10% market share can make such a big splash. Especially for more casual projects, IMO.
pilsetnieks 6y ago
I get that you're just venting and that's fine. But were you to run any kind of open software movement and expressing public opinions, calling people "obsessive brand fanatics" would just antagonize them and not get you taken seriously.
- reallydontask 6y ago
  to be fair there are people out there that do indeed fit that description, though they are in a minority but tend to be pretty vocal, so it's easy to overestimate their numbers
pjmlp 6y ago
Why should they have been? That was wishful thinking from the get go. No commercial UNIX was ever on open source camp, in fact they are the very reason while GCC was ignored for several years, it got a bunch of helping hands as Sun started the trend of user and development UNIX versions. Also given NeXTSTEP heritage, UNIX on NeXTSTEP was always a means to have a foot on the DoD UNIX requirements, there was nothing open source about Renderman, Lotus Improv and many other NeXTSTEP based tooling.

saagarjha 6y ago

I don’t think anyone really had that impression, especially since most of the macOS Forge projects got spun off. But you can’t deny they made (and in many ways, still do) good UNIX machines.

withinboredom 6y ago
> But you can’t deny they made (and in many ways, still do) good UNIX machines. If you mean the hardware, it's OK I guess. It still lacks basic computer features like PXE booting (unless you count the proprietary "netboot"). You can't really install much on it or use it for anything but MacOS, which really isn't that great, IMHO. For the same cost as a MacBook, I got a really nice PC laptop with double the specs that runs linux flawlessly. I can also update the CPU, GPU, and RAM, which I can't do with a macbook.
- RMPR 6y ago
  > For the same cost as a MacBook, I got a really nice PC laptop with double the specs that runs linux flawlessly. I can also update the CPU, GPU, and RAM, which I can't do with a macbook. My go to Laptop these days is the Lenovo ThinkPad X1 (either carbon or Yoga) very nicely built with a great keyboard, I hardly (if ever) heard the fan noise and except on a couple of models where the fingerprint driver isn't present, it works flawlessly ootb with Linux. https://youtube.com/watch?v=v6X1-DxXBEs https://youtube.com/watch?v=v6X1-DxXBEs
  - vetinari 6y ago
    I'm still wondering what Lenovo were thinking when they came with Gen8 X1. They used Comet Lake instead of Ice Lake - that results in things like HDMI port supporting only 1.4 (i.e. no 4k@60 there). It makes their current non competitive with 2020 XPS13 or 2020 MBP13, that do come with Ice Lake.
- beagle3 6y ago
  Which model is that? It used to be that way up until 5 years ago or so in my experience, but it changed to be “comparable specs with comparable price” - except that the options from Apple are very limited.
  - fomine3 6y ago
    Lower spec model is comparable price but higher spec model or CTO option is still expensive. (iMac 27 is exceptional for the display)

arkh 6y ago

> glad people start to see apple is an open source foo creating prisons of software People have been saying it since day 1 of the Apple App Store. It's called a walled garden and it should be attacked as the abuse of a dominant position it is.

bluescrn 6y ago
But when a company makes such shiny and popular devices they seem exempt from any usual criticisms of hypercapitalism and near-monopoly power
- simonh 6y ago
  Near monopoly power. We are talking about Macs still, right? Oh I'm against this latest erosion of the ability to run whatever code you want on a Mac. This is one of the reasons I just got one of the new Intel iMacs, because I can see this coming on the ARM side. It's their product though, they legitimately get a monopoly on what features it has, and I don't have any right to tell them how to design it. That's histrionics. There is a legitimate case to be made though as customers as to how we would like to see the product develop. I'm behind that effort 100%.
  - _qulr 6y ago
    > Near monopoly power. We are talking about Macs still, right? The problem is that there's only one Apple Developer Program for both iOS and macOS. If you get kicked out of the developer program for reasons related to the iOS App Store, you're also kicked out of independent Mac distribution outside the App Store. You no longer have true independence on the Mac either.
    - simonh 6y ago
      Well, you're using someone else's products (dev tools, compilers, OS libraries) you buy and license from them under certain commercial terms. If you don't like the terms, don't buy them. And to be crystal clear, that's the approach I am personally going to take. I carved off a TB partition and installed Windows 10 and WSL 2 on my new iMac and it runs like a dream. I still need MacOS, and I'll be installing Virtualbox for some stuff. If the Mac gets to the point where I can't run all the applications and tools I need, I'll miss the hardware and the OS and some apps, but I'll jump ship. I hope they listen to us, but I intend to ask and argue, not tell or coerce through legal action.

raxxorrax 6y ago

I would never develop against an OS like that. Far too many security risks. MacOS still has < 10% market share and I believe that number won't go up too much in the near future at least. The level of rationalization of these lock in practices is just sad to be honest, fully neglecting how software becomes more accessible. Even signed apps have been victims of malware attacks and I do think the check is primarily to ensure the developer has paid their Apple tax. It isn't that high, but I don't think I want to spend it. If it normalized, Apple will surely increase it and developers would have absolutely no handle to protest.

cesarb 6y ago
> I do think the check is primarily to ensure the developer has paid their Apple tax I think the true reason for the check is not money, but control. They want to control what software runs on "their" platform. For historical reasons, they don't have that control on desktops/laptops yet (but they already have it on phones).
thunkpad 6y ago
If you're developing in the right sector, MacOS has a market that's selected to be lucrative. I don't think that's a particularly good thing, but it does explain how <10% market share can make such a big splash. Especially for more casual projects, IMO.

pilsetnieks 6y ago

I get that you're just venting and that's fine. But were you to run any kind of open software movement and expressing public opinions, calling people "obsessive brand fanatics" would just antagonize them and not get you taken seriously.

reallydontask 6y ago
to be fair there are people out there that do indeed fit that description, though they are in a minority but tend to be pretty vocal, so it's easy to overestimate their numbers

pjmlp 6y ago

Why should they have been? That was wishful thinking from the get go. No commercial UNIX was ever on open source camp, in fact they are the very reason while GCC was ignored for several years, it got a bunch of helping hands as Sun started the trend of user and development UNIX versions. Also given NeXTSTEP heritage, UNIX on NeXTSTEP was always a means to have a foot on the DoD UNIX requirements, there was nothing open source about Renderman, Lotus Improv and many other NeXTSTEP based tooling.