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I have been planting and tending to trees in a forest that I purchased a few years ago. On top of that I have been actively building organic soil in my fields b

I have been planting and tending to trees in a forest that I purchased a few years ago. On top of that I have been actively building organic soil in my fields by top dressing with compost and organic cover crops. That being said, recently I have been feeling that all my efforts are for not, sure I might be making the world a better place in my own small way but for what purpose? Every day I watch as the people around me exploit the environment to enrich themselves while I get left behind. So lately the little voice in my head has been whispering "You own this land, why not clear cut the trees, make a couple hundred grand off the raw logs, buy a tractor to disc the land that's left and grow out a few years of annual grains then sell off the spent pesticide laiden land and live the rest of my life in a condo with a big bank account." I know this sound selfish but why should I just scrape by working my fingers to the bone, whilst the rest of my community sells out? I feel like someone shit in the pool and I'm going to be the last one to get out. I guess my point is every inch of soil I build and every tree I protect is like money in the bank, I can cash in at any time I want. The truth is every day I get more tired and feel the pull to cash it all in for my own selfish gains.

ip26 6y ago
You could start a rotation of timber harvesting. Then you're collecting interest on that money in the bank, without clearcutting your capital. In the big picture you'll get more value out of your asset that way.
- sigmaprimus 6y ago
  Thats a good idea, unfortunately most of the trees worth harvesting are 60+ years old, im not sure I have enough years to do that. Truth is I was having a weak moment when I wrote that comment, I dont think there is a homesteader that hasn't share my thoughts at some point. Sorry for the whining rant!! Chin up!
  - ip26 6y ago
    Once you establish a track record with a clear path forward to perpetual annual yield, whenever you want to sell the property it can be valued based on the projected ongoing yield, even if you don't personally harvest any trees you yourself have planted. Just trying to provide a middle pathway that compromises between "cash it all out" and "leave it pristine & don't touch anything" :)
  - quixoticelixer- 6y ago
    Depending on where you are there are many commercially viable trees that have rotations shorter than 60 years
_jahh 6y ago
you are setting an example, you are fulfilling a duty to the transcendent. you are a beautiful person, can you market more? start a patreon and a vlog? the not clearcutting is much more interesting from that position. i wish you well.
- notagoodidea 6y ago
  > you are a beautiful person, can you market more? start a patreon and a vlog? First, it is not against you personally but I have seen this remarks and suggestions too much that I need to scratch an the itch. When the idea of the necessity to market oneself and go get a patreon had raised so much? I get it, it is a way to be the patron of some person doing art, good, whatever in the world as an alternative to grant, funding and old-school benefactors. But why do we have to create a content in response to that, act like we have to create a community around oneself or the project to get the money? It make me really awkward every time I see a reach like that. I perceive it like a call to create a cult-ish of personality and to enforce the exposure of all in the world through a tiny window made by the different communities you are being part of. And for those people be upfront, they have to stay always the same to keep being the reflection of every member of their communities or it backlashes against them. I always feel awkward that the first response to funding finish to be : put yourself out there and market yourself to get a community and money to create your project. Do not forget to create daily vlog/insta/youtube/whatever so everyone can see that your are here making what we give you money for. Sorry for the rant.
BurningFrog 6y ago
Surely you can sell the land for much more money if you haven't ruined it? Making money by destroying your own property is in general not doable.
- _jahh 6y ago
  i take it you've never seen the remainders of a pit mine
- sigmaprimus 6y ago
  I might be able to get 300K for the land with the house on it right now, if I nuke the forest and put it into hay production that piece alone would earn me 200K for the logs and 50K-100K per year contracting it out to cattle or hay producers. It might not make sense but it is what it is, I guess.
- alltakendamned 6y ago
  Not necessarily, often the value of the land is mostly the value of the trees on it based on type, age, quality, density, ... As such, nature areas - especially when they have a protected status - will be worth less than areas where the trees can be harvested commercially.
  - ajmurmann 6y ago
    It's really a shame that our current economic system has no way to account for miniscule value provided to everyone. I'm glad about every tree on the planet and I'm sure there are many others who feel the same way. Yet that value doesn't get reflected. The value only gets reflected once three is out of the commons and logged.
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    I was thinking from a commercial perspective. A piece of land will have value proportional to how much (say) timber it can produce in the future. OP talked about turning it into "spent pesticide laden land", which to me sounds like nothing will ever grow there again. And commercially, dead land like that has no value.
cmrdporcupine 6y ago
You could do some coppicing if you have any use for the wood and it's the right varieties. Here I can do it with poplar. I have some I cut down 4 or 5 years ago and then a stand of spindly ones came up from the roots, but some of them are already 5-6" in diameter. With some thinning out in another 5 years they will be wide enough for me to make skis with. I basically try to plant something for everything I take out, and to replace non-natives with natives. A coffee table from the Norway maple that a storm took down, and an eastern black cherry growing next to its rotting stump. Feels good.
- sigmaprimus 6y ago
  Thats an interesting idea, I do have lots of cottonwoods that are coppicing, they are currently around 20ft tall and 2-3 inches thick. They tend to grow along the edges of the forest, as the conifers shade them out further in. Are you planning on making water skis? I normally just cut a few each year for my runner beans, I have heard that the larger trees mill into good floor boards in barns as they are easy on animals feet. I do know they don't make very good firewood as they produce insane amounts of ash.
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    I have made wooden snow skis, with a poplar (well eastern cottonwood) core. It's a good lightweight material for that. I had a number of exceedingly huge poplars taken down 5 years ago as they were threatening the house. I had some of it milled and had a dining room table made, and have a bunch for my own hobbying as well. It's a great wood, really should be used more simply because it's very renewable; cut it down and it comes right back Obi-Wan. Yes, it's soft but it's easy to work, is lightweight but has good tensile strength (great for skis!), and has a beautiful tone -- mine had sat in the field for a year and had developed some beautiful spalting, rainbow toned. Mostly that goes away after it is sanded and so on and sits inside but there's still some there. So my goal now is to see how long it will take for poplars to grow with the minimum diameter to make ski cores. I might not even need to hire a mill, might be sufficient to just get them to a minimum diameter, peel and dry them, and then plane them -- they grow pretty straight. Even not growing wide, ski cores are usually a composite of laminated strips, I could probably glue a number of narrower ones together just fine.
donw 6y ago
I'm actively scouting around for my own plot of land, so this resonates with me. > That being said, recently I have been feeling that all my efforts are for not, sure I might be making the world a better place in my own small way but for what purpose? There's two things there to unpack. First, making our part of the world better is really all we can do. I'm a big fan of "be the change you want to see in the world". Be a role model. Show others why doing this is a good thing. If that proves unworkable, then, well, as the saying goes, "there's your problem." Educate others, but when they push back -- listen. Don't shout over them, or insult them. Understand why they push back, and either learn to address their concerns, or adapt your world-view to encompass them. The second part -- what's the purpose? -- is something only you can answer. I love nature. Especially trees. Living in Tokyo, you really start to miss trees and green spaces. The Tokyo mindset seems to be, "oh, look, there's a bit of dirt, we could pour concrete on that." That's why I want some land. I'm not trying to change the world, or score points from other people. My motivation is purely intrinsic -- I want that for me. And because I believe it makes the world nicer, but since I live in the world, that's also something for me. Probably also for my future kids. I want them to be at home anywhere, whether it's rural nowhere, or a dense urban core. Far too many people have only one perspective, and it limits them. Figure out why things matter to you. If it's because you want something from other people, validation or what-have-you -- and I am not saying that is the case -- then you're just going to be disappointed. > I guess my point is every inch of soil I build and every tree I protect is like money in the bank, I can cash in at any time I want. The truth is every day I get more tired and feel the pull to cash it all in for my own selfish gains. Well, which would make you happier? More money in the bank, or having your own personal forest?
- sigmaprimus 6y ago
  You made some good points. Interesting fact, it was a Japanese farmers book that started me off on my path towards owning this property. I too was living in a big city and felt the pull back to nature, then I read a tiny book called "One Straw Revolution" and I was sold on the simpler life. I guess it's kind of a grass is greener situation as I have recently been missing living in the city with all the services offered there but when I was there I wanted to live in the country. I think I will take the day off tomorrow (after my chores) and go for a couple hour walk through the bush, maybe it will refresh my attitude if I take a break from the grind.
captainredbeard 6y ago
Hahaha making money off grain farming is very hard and extremely capital intensive.
nyokodo 6y ago
I’m no farmer but I do love well looked after land and the smaller scale higher quality goods sustainably produced on it. Your story is a huge competitive advantage over your neighbors. You’ve already sold me on your story so why not sell me some products?
prawn 6y ago
Not saying it's the right path, but worst case, could you log and crop part of it and retain the rest for peace of mind? Obviously your financial stability is important, but having some sort of legacy and purpose is also. Maybe you can balance both. Alternatively set up some tiny house cabins and rent them out.

ip26 6y ago

You could start a rotation of timber harvesting. Then you're collecting interest on that money in the bank, without clearcutting your capital. In the big picture you'll get more value out of your asset that way.

sigmaprimus 6y ago
Thats a good idea, unfortunately most of the trees worth harvesting are 60+ years old, im not sure I have enough years to do that. Truth is I was having a weak moment when I wrote that comment, I dont think there is a homesteader that hasn't share my thoughts at some point. Sorry for the whining rant!! Chin up!
- ip26 6y ago
  Once you establish a track record with a clear path forward to perpetual annual yield, whenever you want to sell the property it can be valued based on the projected ongoing yield, even if you don't personally harvest any trees you yourself have planted. Just trying to provide a middle pathway that compromises between "cash it all out" and "leave it pristine & don't touch anything" :)
- quixoticelixer- 6y ago
  Depending on where you are there are many commercially viable trees that have rotations shorter than 60 years

_jahh 6y ago

you are setting an example, you are fulfilling a duty to the transcendent. you are a beautiful person, can you market more? start a patreon and a vlog? the not clearcutting is much more interesting from that position. i wish you well.

notagoodidea 6y ago
> you are a beautiful person, can you market more? start a patreon and a vlog? First, it is not against you personally but I have seen this remarks and suggestions too much that I need to scratch an the itch. When the idea of the necessity to market oneself and go get a patreon had raised so much? I get it, it is a way to be the patron of some person doing art, good, whatever in the world as an alternative to grant, funding and old-school benefactors. But why do we have to create a content in response to that, act like we have to create a community around oneself or the project to get the money? It make me really awkward every time I see a reach like that. I perceive it like a call to create a cult-ish of personality and to enforce the exposure of all in the world through a tiny window made by the different communities you are being part of. And for those people be upfront, they have to stay always the same to keep being the reflection of every member of their communities or it backlashes against them. I always feel awkward that the first response to funding finish to be : put yourself out there and market yourself to get a community and money to create your project. Do not forget to create daily vlog/insta/youtube/whatever so everyone can see that your are here making what we give you money for. Sorry for the rant.

BurningFrog 6y ago

Surely you can sell the land for much more money if you haven't ruined it? Making money by destroying your own property is in general not doable.

_jahh 6y ago
i take it you've never seen the remainders of a pit mine
sigmaprimus 6y ago
I might be able to get 300K for the land with the house on it right now, if I nuke the forest and put it into hay production that piece alone would earn me 200K for the logs and 50K-100K per year contracting it out to cattle or hay producers. It might not make sense but it is what it is, I guess.
alltakendamned 6y ago
Not necessarily, often the value of the land is mostly the value of the trees on it based on type, age, quality, density, ... As such, nature areas - especially when they have a protected status - will be worth less than areas where the trees can be harvested commercially.
- ajmurmann 6y ago
  It's really a shame that our current economic system has no way to account for miniscule value provided to everyone. I'm glad about every tree on the planet and I'm sure there are many others who feel the same way. Yet that value doesn't get reflected. The value only gets reflected once three is out of the commons and logged.
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  I was thinking from a commercial perspective. A piece of land will have value proportional to how much (say) timber it can produce in the future. OP talked about turning it into "spent pesticide laden land", which to me sounds like nothing will ever grow there again. And commercially, dead land like that has no value.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago

You could do some coppicing if you have any use for the wood and it's the right varieties. Here I can do it with poplar. I have some I cut down 4 or 5 years ago and then a stand of spindly ones came up from the roots, but some of them are already 5-6" in diameter. With some thinning out in another 5 years they will be wide enough for me to make skis with. I basically try to plant something for everything I take out, and to replace non-natives with natives. A coffee table from the Norway maple that a storm took down, and an eastern black cherry growing next to its rotting stump. Feels good.

sigmaprimus 6y ago
Thats an interesting idea, I do have lots of cottonwoods that are coppicing, they are currently around 20ft tall and 2-3 inches thick. They tend to grow along the edges of the forest, as the conifers shade them out further in. Are you planning on making water skis? I normally just cut a few each year for my runner beans, I have heard that the larger trees mill into good floor boards in barns as they are easy on animals feet. I do know they don't make very good firewood as they produce insane amounts of ash.
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  I have made wooden snow skis, with a poplar (well eastern cottonwood) core. It's a good lightweight material for that. I had a number of exceedingly huge poplars taken down 5 years ago as they were threatening the house. I had some of it milled and had a dining room table made, and have a bunch for my own hobbying as well. It's a great wood, really should be used more simply because it's very renewable; cut it down and it comes right back Obi-Wan. Yes, it's soft but it's easy to work, is lightweight but has good tensile strength (great for skis!), and has a beautiful tone -- mine had sat in the field for a year and had developed some beautiful spalting, rainbow toned. Mostly that goes away after it is sanded and so on and sits inside but there's still some there. So my goal now is to see how long it will take for poplars to grow with the minimum diameter to make ski cores. I might not even need to hire a mill, might be sufficient to just get them to a minimum diameter, peel and dry them, and then plane them -- they grow pretty straight. Even not growing wide, ski cores are usually a composite of laminated strips, I could probably glue a number of narrower ones together just fine.

donw 6y ago

I'm actively scouting around for my own plot of land, so this resonates with me. > That being said, recently I have been feeling that all my efforts are for not, sure I might be making the world a better place in my own small way but for what purpose? There's two things there to unpack. First, making our part of the world better is really all we can do. I'm a big fan of "be the change you want to see in the world". Be a role model. Show others why doing this is a good thing. If that proves unworkable, then, well, as the saying goes, "there's your problem." Educate others, but when they push back -- listen. Don't shout over them, or insult them. Understand why they push back, and either learn to address their concerns, or adapt your world-view to encompass them. The second part -- what's the purpose? -- is something only you can answer. I love nature. Especially trees. Living in Tokyo, you really start to miss trees and green spaces. The Tokyo mindset seems to be, "oh, look, there's a bit of dirt, we could pour concrete on that." That's why I want some land. I'm not trying to change the world, or score points from other people. My motivation is purely intrinsic -- I want that for me. And because I believe it makes the world nicer, but since I live in the world, that's also something for me. Probably also for my future kids. I want them to be at home anywhere, whether it's rural nowhere, or a dense urban core. Far too many people have only one perspective, and it limits them. Figure out why things matter to you. If it's because you want something from other people, validation or what-have-you -- and I am not saying that is the case -- then you're just going to be disappointed. > I guess my point is every inch of soil I build and every tree I protect is like money in the bank, I can cash in at any time I want. The truth is every day I get more tired and feel the pull to cash it all in for my own selfish gains. Well, which would make you happier? More money in the bank, or having your own personal forest?

sigmaprimus 6y ago
You made some good points. Interesting fact, it was a Japanese farmers book that started me off on my path towards owning this property. I too was living in a big city and felt the pull back to nature, then I read a tiny book called "One Straw Revolution" and I was sold on the simpler life. I guess it's kind of a grass is greener situation as I have recently been missing living in the city with all the services offered there but when I was there I wanted to live in the country. I think I will take the day off tomorrow (after my chores) and go for a couple hour walk through the bush, maybe it will refresh my attitude if I take a break from the grind.

captainredbeard 6y ago

Hahaha making money off grain farming is very hard and extremely capital intensive.

nyokodo 6y ago

I’m no farmer but I do love well looked after land and the smaller scale higher quality goods sustainably produced on it. Your story is a huge competitive advantage over your neighbors. You’ve already sold me on your story so why not sell me some products?

prawn 6y ago

Not saying it's the right path, but worst case, could you log and crop part of it and retain the rest for peace of mind? Obviously your financial stability is important, but having some sort of legacy and purpose is also. Maybe you can balance both. Alternatively set up some tiny house cabins and rent them out.