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>Have we really given up basic consumer rights that easily? Well, yes. I don't know if you've noticed, but short-term convenience trumps all other concerns. Th

>Have we really given up basic consumer rights that easily? Well, yes. I don't know if you've noticed, but short-term convenience trumps all other concerns. The market can't really deal with these issues, because they are too subtle and expensive for individuals to work out for themselves. We really do need collective action, by way of regulation, similar to how we recognized as a society that workplace safety laws were not something private businesses were ever going to compete on, and we just needed to force them to comply. And no doubt the same howls of protest let loose then, too, about how "the extra costs will put me out of business", etc. It was then, as it is now, hogwash. And in fact I would argue this kind of regulation not only important for consumers, but for national security. As more and more individuals lives become dependent on centralized information infrastructure, the more damage espionage (foreign or domestic) can do, not to mention the effect of wide-scale DoS attacks. Imagine a world where all smart devices are bricked...so much of the old infrastructure is gone - phones, phone books, maps, manuals. In some cases you might not even be able to vacuum your house (Roomba owners), or make a POTS phone call. So yeah, its bad on multiple fronts, and I fear that the correcting event will be catastrophic (like, supply chain catastrophic, leading to starvation).

ooobit2 6y ago
We're seeing this right now with Epic's Tim Sweeney suing Apple for its mandatory cut on all digital goods. Yet a large number of people, people who claim to be pro-99%, anti-technocracy, anti-corporatism, are shilling the rhetoric that "it's Apple's platform" and "Epic knew what the terms were." Well, yes, but that's exactly what SV activists and social activists are claiming has to stop. It's absurd that these same people are willing to defend the iPhone/iOS/Apple Services pipeline of proprietary anticompetitive dependencies. I hope Epic wins this case against Apple. It's a precedent that needs to be set for limiting anticompetitive business and manufactured monopolies. Nothing Apple has in its portfolio is absent a perfect substitute in the very same market Apple is selling their products. But Apple has used proprietary inputs as a gatekeeper for their revenue. No one should have to buy a $49 dongle to plug an HDMI cable into their iPhone when every Android/Windows/Linux-based device has built-in support within the device. And if someone tries to push a "Lightning" to HDMI cable, Apple detects and deliberately locks off device content. Too many big, beloved logos are built on anti-free market tactics, both by lobbying policy and private act. The sheer volume of this that Steve Jobs did in his lifetime made it hard for me to feel anything when he died. I genuinely felt relieved that this tyrant in technology, a man whose every product idea was just enough of a change of someone else's existing work product, slapped with intentional proprietary inputs to limit competition within the Apple eco-system, was finally gone. And then Tim Cook sashay'd on in.
- Razengan 6y ago
  > We're seeing this right now with Epic's Tim Sweeney suing Apple for its mandatory cut on all digital goods. I hope Epic wins this case against Apple. It's amazing how everyone who brings that up avoids this question: Does Epic allow anyone to create and and sell content for Fortnite, without giving Epic any money? Do Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo allow other stores on their consoles?
  - esperent 6y ago
    > Do Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo allow other stores on their consoles? Good idea, let's make that a requirement too. The law could be something like "if you sell a general purpose computing device, you're not allowed to mandate software vendor lockin". That would open up so many possibilities, it would be great for the people who own consoles.
    - noduerme 6y ago
      Isn't that roughly what Google has done with Android? They can choose what they want to curate in their own app store, but they don't lock users in based on hardware or use of Android OS. (Someone should take them to court over their prioritization of AMP pages, but that's a different story).
    - Razengan 6y ago
      What about > Does Epic allow players to buy Fortnite content from outside of Fortnite, without giving Epic any money?
      - d3nj4l 6y ago
        This is a disingenuous comparison. Epic does not sell content not made by Epic in Fortnite, while Apple sells content not made by Apple in the App Store. This is like saying a branded clothing store in a mall has to sell things that aren't of its brand if it wants to complain about the mall throttling its sales.
Hnrobert42 6y ago
In the US, we need collective action by way of class action lawsuits. Unfortunately, almost all terms of service now require you tp waive that right. The change needed is a law that prevents waiving the right to class action. Such a law would be considered highly unfavorable to business and would not pass under a Republican majority/presidency. Consider who you vote for accordingly.
- Mountain_Skies 6y ago
  Everything going on with Patreon's arbitration mess is in opposition to your post. Maybe the world isn't as black and white as you think.
  - Hnrobert42 6y ago
    It appears you are misinformed, both about what I think, and the import of the Patreon case. The fact that Patreon botched their arbitration clause, allowing folks to sue individually a possibly bankrupt Patreon, is striking evidence of how powerful a shield arbitration provides. A shield which I don’t believe corporations deserve.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
>similar to how we recognized as a society that workplace safety laws were not something private businesses were ever going to compete on, Democratic-ish societies get laws AFTER society is mostly in agreement on something. We got workplace safety laws because most workplaces had already started to care and the point of the laws were to force low margin industries and other hold-outs to get on board. I mostly agree with the rest of your comment but your order of operations is simply backwards.

ooobit2 6y ago

We're seeing this right now with Epic's Tim Sweeney suing Apple for its mandatory cut on all digital goods. Yet a large number of people, people who claim to be pro-99%, anti-technocracy, anti-corporatism, are shilling the rhetoric that "it's Apple's platform" and "Epic knew what the terms were." Well, yes, but that's exactly what SV activists and social activists are claiming has to stop. It's absurd that these same people are willing to defend the iPhone/iOS/Apple Services pipeline of proprietary anticompetitive dependencies. I hope Epic wins this case against Apple. It's a precedent that needs to be set for limiting anticompetitive business and manufactured monopolies. Nothing Apple has in its portfolio is absent a perfect substitute in the very same market Apple is selling their products. But Apple has used proprietary inputs as a gatekeeper for their revenue. No one should have to buy a $49 dongle to plug an HDMI cable into their iPhone when every Android/Windows/Linux-based device has built-in support within the device. And if someone tries to push a "Lightning" to HDMI cable, Apple detects and deliberately locks off device content. Too many big, beloved logos are built on anti-free market tactics, both by lobbying policy and private act. The sheer volume of this that Steve Jobs did in his lifetime made it hard for me to feel anything when he died. I genuinely felt relieved that this tyrant in technology, a man whose every product idea was just enough of a change of someone else's existing work product, slapped with intentional proprietary inputs to limit competition within the Apple eco-system, was finally gone. And then Tim Cook sashay'd on in.

Razengan 6y ago
> We're seeing this right now with Epic's Tim Sweeney suing Apple for its mandatory cut on all digital goods. I hope Epic wins this case against Apple. It's amazing how everyone who brings that up avoids this question: Does Epic allow anyone to create and and sell content for Fortnite, without giving Epic any money? Do Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo allow other stores on their consoles?
- esperent 6y ago
  > Do Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo allow other stores on their consoles? Good idea, let's make that a requirement too. The law could be something like "if you sell a general purpose computing device, you're not allowed to mandate software vendor lockin". That would open up so many possibilities, it would be great for the people who own consoles.
  - noduerme 6y ago
    Isn't that roughly what Google has done with Android? They can choose what they want to curate in their own app store, but they don't lock users in based on hardware or use of Android OS. (Someone should take them to court over their prioritization of AMP pages, but that's a different story).
  - Razengan 6y ago
    What about > Does Epic allow players to buy Fortnite content from outside of Fortnite, without giving Epic any money?
    - d3nj4l 6y ago
      This is a disingenuous comparison. Epic does not sell content not made by Epic in Fortnite, while Apple sells content not made by Apple in the App Store. This is like saying a branded clothing store in a mall has to sell things that aren't of its brand if it wants to complain about the mall throttling its sales.

Hnrobert42 6y ago

In the US, we need collective action by way of class action lawsuits. Unfortunately, almost all terms of service now require you tp waive that right. The change needed is a law that prevents waiving the right to class action. Such a law would be considered highly unfavorable to business and would not pass under a Republican majority/presidency. Consider who you vote for accordingly.

Mountain_Skies 6y ago
Everything going on with Patreon's arbitration mess is in opposition to your post. Maybe the world isn't as black and white as you think.
- Hnrobert42 6y ago
  It appears you are misinformed, both about what I think, and the import of the Patreon case. The fact that Patreon botched their arbitration clause, allowing folks to sue individually a possibly bankrupt Patreon, is striking evidence of how powerful a shield arbitration provides. A shield which I don’t believe corporations deserve.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

>similar to how we recognized as a society that workplace safety laws were not something private businesses were ever going to compete on, Democratic-ish societies get laws AFTER society is mostly in agreement on something. We got workplace safety laws because most workplaces had already started to care and the point of the laws were to force low margin industries and other hold-outs to get on board. I mostly agree with the rest of your comment but your order of operations is simply backwards.