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Actually, dissociation of character is a trait that is rewarded. Although people will claim they want kind-hearted people as lovers, they also very often conve

Actually, dissociation of character is a trait that is rewarded. Although people will claim they want kind-hearted people as lovers, they also very often conveniently ignore what they do for work, and how cruel they have to be, and the partners happily enjoy the shared money (or respect they have from the world). Lovers surely know it: hard to claim Che Guevarra’s wife, Stalin’s wife or Pablo Escobar’s wife didn’t know anything about drug dealings, but it shows that what people actually fall for are people who are nice... with them, and ruthless to the outside of the family. So the John/Jake dissociation is unfortunately a road to success. I say unfortunately because it brings swathes of problems: John doesn’t mind having less ethics than Jake; wives who suddenly are dumped find themselves on the outer side of the fence, at risk, and very close to a very brutal human; and the last unfortunate corollary is that violent humans who can dissociate (and be someone else in private) reproduce easily from generation to generation. Hitler, Stalin, Che, Saddam Hussein have wives and Salah Abdeslam (the French terrorist, as famously any other mass killer) receives love letters, while people who won’t reproduce include Beaudelaire, Newton, Tesla, the Wright brothers or Alan Turing. The Jake/John dissociative trait is very interesting.

Drdrdrq 6y ago
That... was not the point GP was making, at least not how I see it. And it is doubtful if dictators use / have used different personas, or they simply behaved differently towards close ones (for some time at least).
john4534243 6y ago
> Che Guevarra’s wife, Stalin’s wife or Pablo Escobar’s wife Comparing Che Guevarra and Pablo is totally unfair. Che was a true inspiration, born in a rich family, became a doctor and yet sacrificed his life and fought for what he thought would make the society just. On the other hand Pablo is just a gangster who did not care outside of his family.
- lopmotr 6y ago
  Why would you respect someone for sacrificing and fighting for what they think is just? Osama Bin Laden wasn't too different either. Many Islamic terrorists were engineers before sacrificing their careers and fighting for what they believed in. You're right that they are true inspirations to others, but you seem to imply that's a good thing. Gangsters are obviously also a true inspiration to others (hence glamorization of gangster life) but not really good for society. I suspect that what you really mean is Guevara fought for what you think is just. But that's a weaker statement.
  - john4534243 6y ago
    > I suspect that what you really mean is Guevara fought for what you think is just. But that's a weaker statement. You might have mistaken me as a supporter of communism. I don't support communism. Osama Bin Laden exploited the religion for his personal gain. His goal is to become the caliph which is roughly equivalent to being the single military leader for entier Islam as said in the quoran. He did not bother about the people or had any ideology of his own. Che did not exploit religion. He is an atheist, was supporter of women rights, he understood the value of education and setup schools for his young troops even during the guerrilla warfare. He knew he will not be the leader of cuba and Fidel Castro would be the leader of the country and yet he fought for what he thought would make the society just. Che thought deeply, was highly intelligent and had the balls to sacrifice his life for what he thought would make the society better. Gangsters are one who have balls to do violent things but do not care about society.
    - nomdep 6y ago
      And yet, he became a mass murderer that you apparently idolize. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but you don't have an excuse.
      - john4534243 6y ago
        There is a documentary about the people killed who had found to be guilty and they did not find a single evidence where some one is executed wrongly. Now i will state my reasons why Che is an inspiration. First of all I am not an American or from the Latin country and i do not support Communism. I like Che because of his analytical thinking and hacker like personal traits. I read his book "Guerrilla Warfare"[1] and based on the title i expected the first page must preach about moral values or self righteous, but was very much surprised to find the explanation on the necessary conditions that must exist to start a revolution and goes on to describe how many core members are required, their preferred age and should not be married. He asks to treat the captured enemy nicely and does not make any false pretense of being noble about it. He is direct in pointing out that it is in their self interest. His arguments were logical and rational. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book)
- EVdotIO 6y ago
  Che straight up had people tortured and executed at La Cabaña.
- sjtindell 6y ago
  Pablo Escobar, like modern day cartels in Mexico, gave away lots of money to local communities. He built hundreds of houses for the poor. It’s mostly ego, and buying good will, but there’s definitely a component wherein the government has failed these communities and the Narcos step up.
samus 6y ago
We have little evidence that they used the dissociation trick. But I think it is not really required anyway. Most of us don't need it to get by with our daily lives. And it's far too simple to demonize the villains just by saying they used this trick. It is simply part of human nature to have empathy for those that we consider our own, and to be cruel to the rest. Similarly, to be able to silence our cognitive dissonance when we find out that the people around us and the system we live in have dark sides to them.

Drdrdrq 6y ago

That... was not the point GP was making, at least not how I see it. And it is doubtful if dictators use / have used different personas, or they simply behaved differently towards close ones (for some time at least).

john4534243 6y ago

> Che Guevarra’s wife, Stalin’s wife or Pablo Escobar’s wife Comparing Che Guevarra and Pablo is totally unfair. Che was a true inspiration, born in a rich family, became a doctor and yet sacrificed his life and fought for what he thought would make the society just. On the other hand Pablo is just a gangster who did not care outside of his family.

lopmotr 6y ago
Why would you respect someone for sacrificing and fighting for what they think is just? Osama Bin Laden wasn't too different either. Many Islamic terrorists were engineers before sacrificing their careers and fighting for what they believed in. You're right that they are true inspirations to others, but you seem to imply that's a good thing. Gangsters are obviously also a true inspiration to others (hence glamorization of gangster life) but not really good for society. I suspect that what you really mean is Guevara fought for what you think is just. But that's a weaker statement.
- john4534243 6y ago
  > I suspect that what you really mean is Guevara fought for what you think is just. But that's a weaker statement. You might have mistaken me as a supporter of communism. I don't support communism. Osama Bin Laden exploited the religion for his personal gain. His goal is to become the caliph which is roughly equivalent to being the single military leader for entier Islam as said in the quoran. He did not bother about the people or had any ideology of his own. Che did not exploit religion. He is an atheist, was supporter of women rights, he understood the value of education and setup schools for his young troops even during the guerrilla warfare. He knew he will not be the leader of cuba and Fidel Castro would be the leader of the country and yet he fought for what he thought would make the society just. Che thought deeply, was highly intelligent and had the balls to sacrifice his life for what he thought would make the society better. Gangsters are one who have balls to do violent things but do not care about society.
  - nomdep 6y ago
    And yet, he became a mass murderer that you apparently idolize. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but you don't have an excuse.
    - john4534243 6y ago
      There is a documentary about the people killed who had found to be guilty and they did not find a single evidence where some one is executed wrongly. Now i will state my reasons why Che is an inspiration. First of all I am not an American or from the Latin country and i do not support Communism. I like Che because of his analytical thinking and hacker like personal traits. I read his book "Guerrilla Warfare"[1] and based on the title i expected the first page must preach about moral values or self righteous, but was very much surprised to find the explanation on the necessary conditions that must exist to start a revolution and goes on to describe how many core members are required, their preferred age and should not be married. He asks to treat the captured enemy nicely and does not make any false pretense of being noble about it. He is direct in pointing out that it is in their self interest. His arguments were logical and rational. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book)
EVdotIO 6y ago
Che straight up had people tortured and executed at La Cabaña.
sjtindell 6y ago
Pablo Escobar, like modern day cartels in Mexico, gave away lots of money to local communities. He built hundreds of houses for the poor. It’s mostly ego, and buying good will, but there’s definitely a component wherein the government has failed these communities and the Narcos step up.

samus 6y ago

We have little evidence that they used the dissociation trick. But I think it is not really required anyway. Most of us don't need it to get by with our daily lives. And it's far too simple to demonize the villains just by saying they used this trick. It is simply part of human nature to have empathy for those that we consider our own, and to be cruel to the rest. Similarly, to be able to silence our cognitive dissonance when we find out that the people around us and the system we live in have dark sides to them.