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>The state will, as always, become reliant on it and find ways to expand it to wield more power and pay debts that were taken on to “collect/spend in advance” a

>The state will, as always, become reliant on it and find ways to expand it to wield more power and pay debts that were taken on to “collect/spend in advance” as they’ve done countless times. This hasn't been true for the income tax [0], nor the capital gains tax [1], nor (at least in Silicon Valley) for real estate taxes[2], which are closest to a wealth tax. It's a reasonable thing to consider, but given the evidence we have, should not be a driving consideration. [0] https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/Free_Resources/Federal-Income-Tax-Rates.aspx https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/Free_Resources/Federal-Inco... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Federal_Capital_Gains_Tax_Collections_1954-2009_history_chart.pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Federal_Capital_Gains_Tax... [2] https://www.boe.ca.gov/proptaxes/decline-in-value/ https://www.boe.ca.gov/proptaxes/decline-in-value/ edit: I was misinformed re: income tax, tracking only the top rate.

erichocean 6y ago
> This hasn't been true for the income tax Well that's false, the income tax in the United States originally was promised only to ever apply to the ultra-rich. Now every tax payer pays it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- conception 6y ago
  This is not true. Only about 60%ish of Americans pay income tax. While those who do aren’t just the ultra wealthy, certainly not all Americans do.
  - erichocean 6y ago
    Others have already pointed this out, but you're ignoring Social Security and Medicare which are both income taxes, just pre-allocated to specific government spending programs. 100% of tax payers pay these income taxes, including the self-employed.
- awb 6y ago
  > Now every tax payer pays it. Well that's false. In 2018 44% paid no federal income tax. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/81-million-americans-wont-pay-any-federal-income-taxes-this-year-heres-why-2018-04-16 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/81-million-americans-wont-...
  - dnautics 6y ago
    Every tax payer pays at a minimum their time and stress to file the paperwork, many don't realize that best effort is probably good enough for them, those who are fortunate can spend $150 to a leech of a lying, scheming company to reduce that burden.
    - narraturgy 6y ago
      The notion that the time and stress involved with the paperwork is onerous enough to merit being considered payment seems tenuous to me. The gov't has been pushing (as hard as it can) free file services for all of the years that I've been doing taxes. Using those free file options, I--a standard W-2 worker who doesn't make much--complete my taxes in about 15 minutes these days. The companies that convince people to pay them to do that tiny amount for paperwork are also working to hide how ridiculously quick and stress-free it is for one of those 44% to do their taxes.
      - giantg2 6y ago
        That's a bit of an over generalization. It gets more tedious for people with multiple jobs, investments, a business, etc. Not to mention, many places also require state and local tax paperwork. The companies that charge money, including TurboTax, lobby to keep the tax codes complex so they can keep charging people money.
      - dnautics 6y ago
        I don't stress out over my taxes anymore, but just about everyone else I know does. Of say the 100 closes people you know, how many of them file on the last day, how many people ask for extensions, how many people give up and hire someone to do it for them? That alone should speak volumes.
- chrispeel 6y ago
  Do you have a reference for this "promise"? In the 50s through 70s, there was a much higher income tax on the upper income brackets: the tax was much more progressive. Ronald Reagan dramatically lowered the income taxes on the high income people and kicked off the dramatic increase in economic inequality that we've seen over the past 50 years. The GOP destroyed much of the promise of the American Dream in this case. Is this what you mean?
  - leereeves 6y ago
    I don't know what was promised, or by who, but the first federal income tax after passage of the 16th amendment applied to only the richest 3% of the population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_Act_of_1913 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_Act_of_1913
    - erichocean 6y ago
      Only 3% of the nation had any income above $3K, and they only paid a 1% (!) tax on the income above that threshold. That's how it was sold to the public. Compare that to the general income tax today, and who it applies to: the floor now includes ~60% of people with any income at all, and the lowest possible income tax rate is 10%, e.g. 10x higher. And literally everyone pays income tax in the form of Social Security and Medicare. (For whatever reason, if an income tax is pre-allocated to particular government spending, it's no longer an "income tax" in some people's eyes. The tax effect is identical and you need the 16th Amendment to allow it, so IMO it should be lumped in with the other income taxes we pay.)
  - bluedevil2k 6y ago
    It was supposed to be a temporary tax to fund the Civil War, but like most/all taxes, the "temporary" became permanent. (1) From Wikipedia - In 1913, the top tax rate was 7% on incomes above $500,000 (equivalent to $12.9 million in 2019 dollars) and a total of $28.3 million was collected. 1 - https://www.mwattorneys.com/blog/first-income-tax-was-supposed-to-be-temporary/ https://www.mwattorneys.com/blog/first-income-tax-was-suppos...
controversy 6y ago
Here is an article that directly contradicts your assert. It discusses how congress promised to only tax the really rich and then through drift and power grab we’re all paying taxes. https://soundmindinvesting.com/articles/view/promises-made-promises-broken-what-went-wrong-with-the-income-tax https://soundmindinvesting.com/articles/view/promises-made-p...
derivagral 6y ago
Your graphic only goes to 2009. Note that long-term capital gains moved up from ~15% to ~24% under Obama, and Biden has another plan to increase it[0]. [0]https://taxfoundation.org/joe-biden-tax-plan-2020/ https://taxfoundation.org/joe-biden-tax-plan-2020/

erichocean 6y ago

> This hasn't been true for the income tax Well that's false, the income tax in the United States originally was promised only to ever apply to the ultra-rich. Now every tax payer pays it.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
conception 6y ago
This is not true. Only about 60%ish of Americans pay income tax. While those who do aren’t just the ultra wealthy, certainly not all Americans do.
- erichocean 6y ago
  Others have already pointed this out, but you're ignoring Social Security and Medicare which are both income taxes, just pre-allocated to specific government spending programs. 100% of tax payers pay these income taxes, including the self-employed.
awb 6y ago
> Now every tax payer pays it. Well that's false. In 2018 44% paid no federal income tax. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/81-million-americans-wont-pay-any-federal-income-taxes-this-year-heres-why-2018-04-16 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/81-million-americans-wont-...
- dnautics 6y ago
  Every tax payer pays at a minimum their time and stress to file the paperwork, many don't realize that best effort is probably good enough for them, those who are fortunate can spend $150 to a leech of a lying, scheming company to reduce that burden.
  - narraturgy 6y ago
    The notion that the time and stress involved with the paperwork is onerous enough to merit being considered payment seems tenuous to me. The gov't has been pushing (as hard as it can) free file services for all of the years that I've been doing taxes. Using those free file options, I--a standard W-2 worker who doesn't make much--complete my taxes in about 15 minutes these days. The companies that convince people to pay them to do that tiny amount for paperwork are also working to hide how ridiculously quick and stress-free it is for one of those 44% to do their taxes.
    - giantg2 6y ago
      That's a bit of an over generalization. It gets more tedious for people with multiple jobs, investments, a business, etc. Not to mention, many places also require state and local tax paperwork. The companies that charge money, including TurboTax, lobby to keep the tax codes complex so they can keep charging people money.
    - dnautics 6y ago
      I don't stress out over my taxes anymore, but just about everyone else I know does. Of say the 100 closes people you know, how many of them file on the last day, how many people ask for extensions, how many people give up and hire someone to do it for them? That alone should speak volumes.
chrispeel 6y ago
Do you have a reference for this "promise"? In the 50s through 70s, there was a much higher income tax on the upper income brackets: the tax was much more progressive. Ronald Reagan dramatically lowered the income taxes on the high income people and kicked off the dramatic increase in economic inequality that we've seen over the past 50 years. The GOP destroyed much of the promise of the American Dream in this case. Is this what you mean?
- leereeves 6y ago
  I don't know what was promised, or by who, but the first federal income tax after passage of the 16th amendment applied to only the richest 3% of the population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_Act_of_1913 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_Act_of_1913
  - erichocean 6y ago
    Only 3% of the nation had any income above $3K, and they only paid a 1% (!) tax on the income above that threshold. That's how it was sold to the public. Compare that to the general income tax today, and who it applies to: the floor now includes ~60% of people with any income at all, and the lowest possible income tax rate is 10%, e.g. 10x higher. And literally everyone pays income tax in the form of Social Security and Medicare. (For whatever reason, if an income tax is pre-allocated to particular government spending, it's no longer an "income tax" in some people's eyes. The tax effect is identical and you need the 16th Amendment to allow it, so IMO it should be lumped in with the other income taxes we pay.)
- bluedevil2k 6y ago
  It was supposed to be a temporary tax to fund the Civil War, but like most/all taxes, the "temporary" became permanent. (1) From Wikipedia - In 1913, the top tax rate was 7% on incomes above $500,000 (equivalent to $12.9 million in 2019 dollars) and a total of $28.3 million was collected. 1 - https://www.mwattorneys.com/blog/first-income-tax-was-supposed-to-be-temporary/ https://www.mwattorneys.com/blog/first-income-tax-was-suppos...

controversy 6y ago

Here is an article that directly contradicts your assert. It discusses how congress promised to only tax the really rich and then through drift and power grab we’re all paying taxes. https://soundmindinvesting.com/articles/view/promises-made-promises-broken-what-went-wrong-with-the-income-tax https://soundmindinvesting.com/articles/view/promises-made-p...

derivagral 6y ago

Your graphic only goes to 2009. Note that long-term capital gains moved up from ~15% to ~24% under Obama, and Biden has another plan to increase it[0]. [0]https://taxfoundation.org/joe-biden-tax-plan-2020/ https://taxfoundation.org/joe-biden-tax-plan-2020/