5 ms·

This happens because execs are cheap, farm out everything to dev shops, and the beleaguered, underqualified devs power out nonsense code to keep up with the arb

This happens because execs are cheap, farm out everything to dev shops, and the beleaguered, underqualified devs power out nonsense code to keep up with the arbitrary point quota for the sprint. No one knows how the whole system works, reqs change constantly so poorly-planned updates degrade the whole thing, and all the while actual patient data gets mixed into the big soupy pot of bullshit. Anyone who raises concerns about the situation gets to be the "compliance officer," thus passing responsibility from the people benefitting from the situation to the people who just want to keep their job. I wonder what would happen if devs could say to their boss "no, this won't be released until we're confident in it" with legally enforced immunity to consequences.

adrianpike 6y ago
In this case, according to their about page, it looks like the execs are the beleaguered, underqualified devs.
- mars4rp 6y ago
  It is about the culture, doesn't matter who sits at the seat.
  - derivagral 6y ago
    Someone has to drive that culture though, and that's classically the execs job, right?
iecheruo 6y ago
What you're describing is a professional licensed engineer who has to among other things take out insurance because they are ultimately responsible for their decisions.
- pnathan 6y ago
  Software development is long overdue for a legally professional software engineer license and certification process. I imagine it's going to happen down the road after something important gets burnt.
  - Hallucinaut 6y ago
    There's no chance of this happening in my view. There's way too many vested interests in the "democratisation of development" especially the likes of "coding bootcamps", limitless frameworks and tools for "code-free" development, and extremely blurred lines on things like WordPress where a "developer" could be anything from someone who can only install plugins through the front-end to crack PHP developers.
    - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
      I think there's more to it than this. In traditional engineering, you only need to be licensed to sign off. You can still effectively do exactly the same job as a licensed engineer without being licensed, you just can't sign off on work (And thus be held responsible). The way I see it, creating a license for Software Engineers doesn't really fix the issue. It just creates a scapegoat to blame when things go wrong.
      - ColanR 6y ago
        > It just creates a scapegoat to blame when things go wrong. That's just how it works for other engineering disciplines; with the license, the scapegoat has the legal power to refuse responsibility until they're confident things won't go wrong.
        ZephyrBlu 6y ago
        Who is ever really going to be confident in signing off on complicated software systems when in effect, it's saying, "Yes this system will absolutely not break/be breached/have something happen to it". Given the complexity of modern software, it doesn't seem like a feasible solution. Even top software companies have things break or go wrong very frequently compared to traditional engineering. I don't see this as a good solution in the software world.
- social_quotient 6y ago
  Yep. And how is this not a standard errors and omissions insurance policy that tech agencies like mine should (are required) be carrying? We spend about 15k per year for about 10mm in coverage (we are a small shop). This sort of oversight is not just an engineering one but it’s fundamental to the core ops of the business. If we are rushing under client pressure (or just running late) to the extent we take on risk to trigger liability, it’s full stop. https://cense.ai/about https://cense.ai/about Guy number two here had the background to know better. Just didn’t make it a priority. It’s unfortunate. The only way things change is when we start seeing data warehousing/collection as a liability (not an asset) and manage it accordingly. And making the penalty for error unforgivable.
- fyfy18 6y ago
  Working as a contractor in the UK, most contracts stipulate you have Professional Indemnity insurance, which is for exactly this. I doubt anyone has actually made a claim for it though, the amount of other people I've worked with (who are also contractors earning £500+/day) who I wouldn't trust to even watch my laptop is atrocious.
  - Chris2048 6y ago
    AFAIK, this only really covers gross negligence or outright sabotage. I don't recon anyone trying to pin bad business decisions on their devs are likely to succeed in court.
- jcrawfordor 6y ago
  When I have done independent IT ops and software work I have carried professional liability insurance, and I would recommend that everyone does. The irony is, of course, that PL/E&O insurance for software work runs pretty cheap, presumably because liability on the part of developers of software is quite rare!
- Mandatum 6y ago
  In Australia we're all insured. The only developers who aren't are employees for the companies they're writing code for. The worst thing that can happen to them is they'd be fired. The company still owns the blame.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

adrianpike 6y ago

In this case, according to their about page, it looks like the execs are the beleaguered, underqualified devs.

mars4rp 6y ago
It is about the culture, doesn't matter who sits at the seat.
- derivagral 6y ago
  Someone has to drive that culture though, and that's classically the execs job, right?

iecheruo 6y ago

What you're describing is a professional licensed engineer who has to among other things take out insurance because they are ultimately responsible for their decisions.

pnathan 6y ago
Software development is long overdue for a legally professional software engineer license and certification process. I imagine it's going to happen down the road after something important gets burnt.
- Hallucinaut 6y ago
  There's no chance of this happening in my view. There's way too many vested interests in the "democratisation of development" especially the likes of "coding bootcamps", limitless frameworks and tools for "code-free" development, and extremely blurred lines on things like WordPress where a "developer" could be anything from someone who can only install plugins through the front-end to crack PHP developers.
  - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
    I think there's more to it than this. In traditional engineering, you only need to be licensed to sign off. You can still effectively do exactly the same job as a licensed engineer without being licensed, you just can't sign off on work (And thus be held responsible). The way I see it, creating a license for Software Engineers doesn't really fix the issue. It just creates a scapegoat to blame when things go wrong.
    - ColanR 6y ago
      > It just creates a scapegoat to blame when things go wrong. That's just how it works for other engineering disciplines; with the license, the scapegoat has the legal power to refuse responsibility until they're confident things won't go wrong.
      - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
        Who is ever really going to be confident in signing off on complicated software systems when in effect, it's saying, "Yes this system will absolutely not break/be breached/have something happen to it". Given the complexity of modern software, it doesn't seem like a feasible solution. Even top software companies have things break or go wrong very frequently compared to traditional engineering. I don't see this as a good solution in the software world.
social_quotient 6y ago
Yep. And how is this not a standard errors and omissions insurance policy that tech agencies like mine should (are required) be carrying? We spend about 15k per year for about 10mm in coverage (we are a small shop). This sort of oversight is not just an engineering one but it’s fundamental to the core ops of the business. If we are rushing under client pressure (or just running late) to the extent we take on risk to trigger liability, it’s full stop. https://cense.ai/about https://cense.ai/about Guy number two here had the background to know better. Just didn’t make it a priority. It’s unfortunate. The only way things change is when we start seeing data warehousing/collection as a liability (not an asset) and manage it accordingly. And making the penalty for error unforgivable.
fyfy18 6y ago
Working as a contractor in the UK, most contracts stipulate you have Professional Indemnity insurance, which is for exactly this. I doubt anyone has actually made a claim for it though, the amount of other people I've worked with (who are also contractors earning £500+/day) who I wouldn't trust to even watch my laptop is atrocious.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  AFAIK, this only really covers gross negligence or outright sabotage. I don't recon anyone trying to pin bad business decisions on their devs are likely to succeed in court.
jcrawfordor 6y ago
When I have done independent IT ops and software work I have carried professional liability insurance, and I would recommend that everyone does. The irony is, of course, that PL/E&O insurance for software work runs pretty cheap, presumably because liability on the part of developers of software is quite rare!
Mandatum 6y ago
In Australia we're all insured. The only developers who aren't are employees for the companies they're writing code for. The worst thing that can happen to them is they'd be fired. The company still owns the blame.

deleted 6y ago

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