8 ms·

Is it time to address to the elephant in the room yet? Can we go ahead and admit to this growing affinity for ripping directly off OSX? http://i.imgur.com/SbCB

by Queue29 16y ago

Is it time to address to the elephant in the room yet? Can we go ahead and admit to this growing affinity for ripping directly off OSX? http://i.imgur.com/SbCBe.png http://i.imgur.com/SbCBe.png

ugh 16y ago
Who cares? Does that matter?
naner 16y ago
KDE 4.0 also has the system configuration options all together like OSX.
papercrane 16y ago
Can we address the elephant in the room? All these windowed GUI's are just ripping directly off of Xerox PARC. It's shameful!
- buster 16y ago
  this one.
MatthewPhillips 16y ago
I don't see any similarities at all. Maybe they did borrow some stuff. They borrowed some stuff from Windows 7 as well (the window snapping). I don't see anything wrong with it. This is the most beautiful desktop environment I've ever seen, although I haven't had a chance to use it yet.
- silvertab 16y ago
  Just a few examples of what (I'm guessing) he was referring to: The dock (Gnome left, OS X Right:) http://d.pr/pUgC http://d.pr/pUgC Launchbar / Application Launcher http://d.pr/1cGv http://d.pr/1cGv Exposé / Window Selector: http://d.pr/5Vr9 http://d.pr/5Vr9
  - papercrane 16y ago
    Neither the dock or launch bar were invented by Apple (both have history in NextOS/Openstep)
    - omh 16y ago
      both have history in NextOS/Openstep But OS X basically is NextOS isn't it?
      - papercrane 16y ago
        Well I think the history is more complicated then that, but yes, OS X has some code and ideas from NextOS/Openstep.
ryanklee 16y ago
Not Invented Here.
eitland 16y ago
I think it should be discussed at about the same time that the fact that people use Macbooks to run Linuxes on. Let me address what seems to be your underlying motivation: Gnome/KDE aren't just rip offs. For many people, and for many use cases, Linux+Gnome or Linux+KDE is a WAY better choice than Mac OS X. In fact I wish Apple took some hints like for example giving us a choice of normal (as in Windows/KDE/Gnome like) window management.
- sudont 16y ago
  "Normal" window management is the reason I haven't jumped to Linux yet. The persistent muddle of window > application hierarchy is very annoying, especially for anyone who performs actions in headless GUI applications. Apple's UI hierarchy is completely different that Windows and Gnome, this is why application commands are represented in the menu bar, which is separate from a single window.
  - jallmann 16y ago
    If UI what's holding you back, then you don't need Linux. I use Linux for many reasons. The desktop environment ranks very low among those reasons.
- jokermatt999 16y ago
  In fact I wish Apple took some hints like for example giving us a choice of normal (as in Windows/KDE/Gnome like) window management. As a lifelong Windows user who has continually heard about the superior UI of OS X, this is what's kept me from ever buying a Mac. I've tried a few out (I have some Mac user friends), and I just really hate the dock style. Similarly, it's also kept me from buying Windows 7 until I've had a chance to see how configurable the window management in that is.
  - CrazedGeek 16y ago
    While W7's taskbar acts like OS X's by default, it's a single checkbox away from making it act like earlier Windows taskbars. (Still no virtual desktops though.)
tmgrhm 16y ago
Shame to see you're being poopoo'd — there are clearly huge similarities with the upcoming OS X Lion — although, to be fair to your detractors, you did pick the worst example. The new Application Launcher looks exactly like Launchpad. Darken the wallpaper, display installed applications as icons with the names below them, just as in Springboard.app. The window selector looks exactly like Exposé — not even a new feature of OS X. Darken wallpaper, windows appear in a miniaturised form of themselves to give you an overview of all open windows. The workspace manager looks just like Mission Control's space selector. In Lion the spaces are shown horizontally at the top of the screen, but both Gnome and Lion show the spaces on the opposite side of the screen to the default dock position. I have to say, the space is used more effectively in Gnome by stacking them vertically. The switches (instead of checkboxes) as visible in the YouTube video embedded (0:04) are clearly inspired by iOS' ON|OFF switches. As are the sliders (visible at 0:05). (Tenuous one, but the Close buttons used in the Exposé view are very similar to the "Remove Widget" buttons used in Dashboard when holding Alt.) (I don't know what the old System Preferences window of Gnome looked like, but it does look awfully similar to OS X's.) Now, admittedly, there are of course differences (such as being able to close windows from Gnome 3's exposé view) and I don't expect everyone to invent an entirely new UI — I acknowledge that the use of a windowed environment isn't Apple's invention. But I do refute the idea that this UI hasn't taken inspiration from Lion and I refute the idea that it simply doesn't matter.
- gloob 16y ago
  You might disagree with the idea that "it simply doesn't matter", but I don't actually see any refuting of that idea in your post. Could you offer a reason why it does matter?
- papercrane 16y ago
  I'm not a UI expert, but I think it's unfair to take a feature from OSX compare it to Gnome and if they are similar assume that Gnome copied that feature or idea. Really for each example we'd have to consider it's history, and how it relates to similar elements and features. Perhaps both OSX and Gnome were inspired by a third party? Maybe it's just the most obvious way to implement that feature?
statictype 16y ago
Well, thankfully they ripped off the window positioning mechanism from Windows 7, making Gnome 3 already better at window management than OS X.
bxr 16y ago
>Is it time to address to the elephant in the room yet? UIs are constantly ripping eachother off, all over the place. What would be considered relatively different UIs to us are in the big picture very, very similar. When a particular execution of UI makes good use of solid principles, you can expect to see it everywhere else. Things that work, work, and train users to expect it. In this Apple showed us the lines along which grouping in a control panel make sense. So to answer your question, its not that we need to acknowledge the elephant. We have, and we happen to like the elephant so much that we've gotten accustomed to it. So accustomed that we don't need to keep pointing and going "Hey guys, theres an elephant in here". You'd just be met with "yup".
recoiledsnake 16y ago
Aero Snap from Windows 7 seems to have been copied as-is as well. However, maximize and minimize buttons have been removed to conserve space which is quite a radical departure from the other OSes.
- imd 16y ago
  Probably not to conserve space, since who needs the extra 30px on most titlebars? It's just that GNOME like to eliminate everything they possibly can, to look minimalist.
Daishiman 16y ago
I think the Applle ripoff of virtual desktops is a far more egrerious offender. Not that I really care; as far as I'm concerned it's better if we don't concern ourselves about who was the first to come up with an idea.
cpeterso 16y ago
Unless your new design is 10x better, borrowing a popular precedent is probably a good idea. That said, I think GNOME would benefit from studying sources beyond just Mac OS X.

by Queue29 16y ago

Is it time to address to the elephant in the room yet? Can we go ahead and admit to this growing affinity for ripping directly off OSX? http://i.imgur.com/SbCBe.png http://i.imgur.com/SbCBe.png

ugh 16y ago

Who cares? Does that matter?

naner 16y ago

KDE 4.0 also has the system configuration options all together like OSX.

papercrane 16y ago

Can we address the elephant in the room? All these windowed GUI's are just ripping directly off of Xerox PARC. It's shameful!

buster 16y ago
this one.

MatthewPhillips 16y ago

I don't see any similarities at all. Maybe they did borrow some stuff. They borrowed some stuff from Windows 7 as well (the window snapping). I don't see anything wrong with it. This is the most beautiful desktop environment I've ever seen, although I haven't had a chance to use it yet.

silvertab 16y ago
Just a few examples of what (I'm guessing) he was referring to: The dock (Gnome left, OS X Right:) http://d.pr/pUgC http://d.pr/pUgC Launchbar / Application Launcher http://d.pr/1cGv http://d.pr/1cGv Exposé / Window Selector: http://d.pr/5Vr9 http://d.pr/5Vr9
- papercrane 16y ago
  Neither the dock or launch bar were invented by Apple (both have history in NextOS/Openstep)
  - omh 16y ago
    both have history in NextOS/Openstep But OS X basically is NextOS isn't it?
    - papercrane 16y ago
      Well I think the history is more complicated then that, but yes, OS X has some code and ideas from NextOS/Openstep.

ryanklee 16y ago

Not Invented Here.

eitland 16y ago

I think it should be discussed at about the same time that the fact that people use Macbooks to run Linuxes on. Let me address what seems to be your underlying motivation: Gnome/KDE aren't just rip offs. For many people, and for many use cases, Linux+Gnome or Linux+KDE is a WAY better choice than Mac OS X. In fact I wish Apple took some hints like for example giving us a choice of normal (as in Windows/KDE/Gnome like) window management.

sudont 16y ago
"Normal" window management is the reason I haven't jumped to Linux yet. The persistent muddle of window > application hierarchy is very annoying, especially for anyone who performs actions in headless GUI applications. Apple's UI hierarchy is completely different that Windows and Gnome, this is why application commands are represented in the menu bar, which is separate from a single window.
- jallmann 16y ago
  If UI what's holding you back, then you don't need Linux. I use Linux for many reasons. The desktop environment ranks very low among those reasons.
jokermatt999 16y ago
In fact I wish Apple took some hints like for example giving us a choice of normal (as in Windows/KDE/Gnome like) window management. As a lifelong Windows user who has continually heard about the superior UI of OS X, this is what's kept me from ever buying a Mac. I've tried a few out (I have some Mac user friends), and I just really hate the dock style. Similarly, it's also kept me from buying Windows 7 until I've had a chance to see how configurable the window management in that is.
- CrazedGeek 16y ago
  While W7's taskbar acts like OS X's by default, it's a single checkbox away from making it act like earlier Windows taskbars. (Still no virtual desktops though.)

tmgrhm 16y ago

Shame to see you're being poopoo'd — there are clearly huge similarities with the upcoming OS X Lion — although, to be fair to your detractors, you did pick the worst example. The new Application Launcher looks exactly like Launchpad. Darken the wallpaper, display installed applications as icons with the names below them, just as in Springboard.app. The window selector looks exactly like Exposé — not even a new feature of OS X. Darken wallpaper, windows appear in a miniaturised form of themselves to give you an overview of all open windows. The workspace manager looks just like Mission Control's space selector. In Lion the spaces are shown horizontally at the top of the screen, but both Gnome and Lion show the spaces on the opposite side of the screen to the default dock position. I have to say, the space is used more effectively in Gnome by stacking them vertically. The switches (instead of checkboxes) as visible in the YouTube video embedded (0:04) are clearly inspired by iOS' ON|OFF switches. As are the sliders (visible at 0:05). (Tenuous one, but the Close buttons used in the Exposé view are very similar to the "Remove Widget" buttons used in Dashboard when holding Alt.) (I don't know what the old System Preferences window of Gnome looked like, but it does look awfully similar to OS X's.) Now, admittedly, there are of course differences (such as being able to close windows from Gnome 3's exposé view) and I don't expect everyone to invent an entirely new UI — I acknowledge that the use of a windowed environment isn't Apple's invention. But I do refute the idea that this UI hasn't taken inspiration from Lion and I refute the idea that it simply doesn't matter.

gloob 16y ago
You might disagree with the idea that "it simply doesn't matter", but I don't actually see any refuting of that idea in your post. Could you offer a reason why it does matter?
papercrane 16y ago
I'm not a UI expert, but I think it's unfair to take a feature from OSX compare it to Gnome and if they are similar assume that Gnome copied that feature or idea. Really for each example we'd have to consider it's history, and how it relates to similar elements and features. Perhaps both OSX and Gnome were inspired by a third party? Maybe it's just the most obvious way to implement that feature?

statictype 16y ago

Well, thankfully they ripped off the window positioning mechanism from Windows 7, making Gnome 3 already better at window management than OS X.

bxr 16y ago

>Is it time to address to the elephant in the room yet? UIs are constantly ripping eachother off, all over the place. What would be considered relatively different UIs to us are in the big picture very, very similar. When a particular execution of UI makes good use of solid principles, you can expect to see it everywhere else. Things that work, work, and train users to expect it. In this Apple showed us the lines along which grouping in a control panel make sense. So to answer your question, its not that we need to acknowledge the elephant. We have, and we happen to like the elephant so much that we've gotten accustomed to it. So accustomed that we don't need to keep pointing and going "Hey guys, theres an elephant in here". You'd just be met with "yup".

recoiledsnake 16y ago

Aero Snap from Windows 7 seems to have been copied as-is as well. However, maximize and minimize buttons have been removed to conserve space which is quite a radical departure from the other OSes.

imd 16y ago
Probably not to conserve space, since who needs the extra 30px on most titlebars? It's just that GNOME like to eliminate everything they possibly can, to look minimalist.

Daishiman 16y ago

I think the Applle ripoff of virtual desktops is a far more egrerious offender. Not that I really care; as far as I'm concerned it's better if we don't concern ourselves about who was the first to come up with an idea.

cpeterso 16y ago

Unless your new design is 10x better, borrowing a popular precedent is probably a good idea. That said, I think GNOME would benefit from studying sources beyond just Mac OS X.