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This is Apple trying to avoid real Right to Repair legislation by taking actions that look like they support independent repair. Consider taking a moment to do

by sinak 6y ago

This is Apple trying to avoid real Right to Repair legislation by taking actions that look like they support independent repair. Consider taking a moment to donate to https://repair.org/ https://repair.org/ - we're pushing to get Right to Repair laws passed in state legislatures across the US.

sushshshsh 6y ago
I am a real believer in right to repair. But I wonder, if we are unable to achieve legislative results, what can be done to build hardware on open standards?
- harikb 6y ago
  People have tried and failed. https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/2/12775922/google-project-ara-modular-phone-suspended-confirm https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/2/12775922/google-project-ar... I think there is no money in letting people repair and upgrade components.
  - sushshshsh 6y ago
    Google kills off a lot of things lol! I'm more concerned with raspi and ARM and etc :) Only functionality missing would be valid cell tower functionality. Wifi and satellite would work just fine
  - emptyparadise 6y ago
    Project Ara was so overdesigned that I'm almost convinced that it was a false flag.
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    That was a dumb idea to begin with. We don't need phones that work like lego. Just reverting to how phones worked 5 years ago would be a massive improvement. For almost all users all they will ever need to do is replace the battery. We used to be able to replace the battery with no tools or skills and the screen was pretty easy if you had some skill at all. The problem we face now is that the user can't fix anything at all, repair stores can fix things with great difficulty but they can't get new parts, and apple themselves can't even fix most things because the individual parts can't even be replaced on their own without replacing the whole thing. (The macbook keyboard which was prone to fail was attached with 50 rivets) All we need is user replaceable batteries, and for service centres to have access to all the parts they need. Lewis rossman can't get access to a chip that was >$1 on the old macbooks and is prone to fail. The newer version of the chip is impossible to source meaning those macbooks either get binned or pay apple for a whole new mobo which costs more than the laptop is worth.
    - eirini1 6y ago
      For real, all I want is for us to go back to the time where you could pop off the back cover of your phone by at worst unscrewing some screws, and the easily replace the battery.
      - munk-a 6y ago
        Then maybe Apple wouldn't need to send out a backdoor patch to underclock old devices. People that still want the long battery life the device had on purchase could go out and purchase a new battery (or attempt to force Apple to give them a new one) - those folks that are fine being tethered to a power outlet can choose to ignore the shortening battery lifespan. Either way, it'd move the decision into the hands of the consumer instead of Apple making that choice for you. And don't forget that Apple did get into trouble over their stupid underclocking "We hope no one notices that we don't allow people to repair things" patch.
    - phh 6y ago
      Then you could vote with your wallet and take a Fairphone :-)
      - oblio 6y ago
        This doesn't work. You can't rely on individual action for massive scale initiatives. Look how far that got us for the ozone layer (solved through governmental action), climate change (unsolved, because there is no governmental action), decent working conditions (everything achieved was through unions, protests and government intervention), etc
- creato 6y ago
  It just isn't something most people buying electronics care about, and there are real tradeoffs with size, weight, and aesthetic design choices. Combine those factors, and it's easy to see why the economics don't work. Making your device easily serviceable makes it more attractive to a tiny segment of the market, while making it less attractive to a much bigger segment.
  - rasz 6y ago
    Right to repair is not about redesigning products to become easily serviceable, its about access to same tools and parts manufacturer uses for its own internal service.
    - novok 6y ago
      That can lead to a full on 'only replace' strategy, as you can see with canon's consumer printers.
      - R0b0t1 6y ago
        Unfortunately 'only replace' does seem to be workable for many devices, like TVs. At most you will be replacing entire boards.
  - kiba 6y ago
    There's a difference between intentionally making a device harder to repair and making design tradeoff to satisfy certain consumer preference.
  - munk-a 6y ago
    I disagree that making your device easily serviceable necessarily makes it less attractive to that portion of the population. I think that making your device brittle, fragile and easy to tamper with makes it less attractive to that portion of the population - having open documentation about the ways to approach repair and then letting the electronics repair shops all be able to repair your device makes it really attractive to pretty much all of the population. If your ease of repair comes at the cost of quality people will complain about the lack of quality - but nobody specifically wants something that can only be repaired by one market entrant that has full control over the price of repairs. Also, if you really want to emphasize quality you can run a repair certification program that distributes high priced stickers to aide in people's confidence.
- deepstack 6y ago
  Apple is hardware maker. Of course it make sense for them to design the hardware so only they can repair it. It is part of their business model.
  - haezee 6y ago
    Except.. They're not the only ones who can repair it (even though they act like it). And their efforts to hurt independent repairshops show signs of antitrust, which is the topic at hand.
  - djaychela 6y ago
    But in many cases this is achieved solely by supply-side restriction of replacement parts - stopping IC manufacturers from supplying those chips to people who could easily repair the device given those parts (macbook power IC springs to mind - same device as a commercial one, just a different pinout for the unobtainable Apple version), or making replacements locked down (such as on new macbooks - you can't just swap a screen now).
  - sushshshsh 6y ago
    Should we also have to pay $990 for oil changes on a leased BMW? ^.^
- munk-a 6y ago
  The market could fix this issue if a significant enough chunk of consumers comprehended what they were losing when going with Apple and were willing to put their money where their mouth was. That's simply not going to happen and a market based solution is unreasonable - this is a time where subject matter experts need to help make an informed decision for the population at large.
egsmi 6y ago
I actually do support the right to repair. I even donated at the link you provided. But, as a hardware designer myself, the devil is in the details for something like this and people need to be really careful. https://repair.org/policy https://repair.org/policy "Unlocking: Legalize unlocking, adapting, and modifying any part of the machine, including software." The backdoor tools the FBI is asking for could easily fall into that category. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying, be very careful what you ask for.
- soulofmischief 6y ago
  Are you referring to the secure enclave?
  - egsmi 6y ago
    That’s a part of the machine therefore it would technically be included by the statement given on the right to repair policy page. Obviously that page is meant to be a high level statement, it’s not law. But hopefully you can see my point.
    - soulofmischief 6y ago
      The secure enclave might end up being where the trap door goes. :(
- harry8 6y ago
  nonono. This is not the right place for that restriction at all. You should have the right to install backdoor tools on a technical level. If you install backdoor tools on equipment without permission from the owner or a properly executed warrant that is the crime and what must be prevented. Don't conflate restraining the FBI with being allowed to treat the device you paid for and own exactly as a device you paid for and own and is entirely your property.
  - ponker 6y ago
    The FBI can commit crimes with impunity, that much has been made clear. So given that, the best thing you can do to your hardware is make sure that even criminals can't get in, which also restrains some of the rights of the original owner.
kyriakos 6y ago
Apple's workaround may work in US but don't think it will get very far in EU
- jstummbillig 6y ago
  I don't know. It's infuriating what Apple gets away with in Germany. For example right now to maybe get my 2018 MacBook Pro keyboard fixed, I have to relinquish the unit for a minimum of five workdays. Mind you nobody guarantees me that they will actually do the repair within the time frame or that it will in fact be covered by the extended warranty. This is just the minimum time they will hold the unit to have a look at it and tell me what's up. Cool.
  - larsnystrom 6y ago
    I actually just handed in my 2016 MBP and got the keyboard replaced under their extended 4 year “butterfly mishap”-warranty. The new keyboard feels so much better than the last one. Plus they also replaced the battery because it’s all soldered together, so battery life got like 50% better. It cost me nothing and they did it when I was on vacation anyway, so it wasn’t much of a nuisance. No data loss at all. I live in Sweden but I think they sent it to Czech Republic for the replacement. Handed it in Monday evening and got it delivered to my door Tuesday the week thereafter. All in all it was totally worth it, but I’ve only had it for a few weeks now so who knows how long it’ll last this time.
    - jwandborg 6y ago
      Would you take vacation the next time your laptop breaks?
      - kyriakos 6y ago
        I'm not an apple fan and never owned an apple laptop but, even with other brands unless you buy their enterprise models (e.g. dell latitude, lenovo thinkpad) with the appropriate warranty you won't get same day hardware support in most of Europe. And even with onsite support with Dell I had a case when the battery died completely and the laptop could only work when plugged in, they did show up at the office, they checked it out diagnosed that the battery is dead (no kidding), and came back 2 days later with a new battery.
JoshTriplett 6y ago
This has the same problem I've seen with other such proposals: it joins together "you should have the legal right to repair" with "manufacturers should be forced to make only devices with modular replaceable parts". The latter sounds good in theory, except if it means thicker, heavier, less optimized devices. By all means offer such devices, but don't take away the option of devices at a different point on the tradeoff between modularity and thin/light/optimized. You should absolutely have the legal right to open, tinker with, repair, or otherwise mod any device you own. That doesn't mean prohibiting the legal right to manufacture, sell, purchase, or use devices whose design trades off simplicity of repair for some other property that people purchasing it want more.
- AriaMinaei 6y ago
  > except if it means thicker, heavier, less optimized devices Speaking specifically of my MBP Retina, and looking inside, I fail to see how eg. a soldered NVME would make the laptop any thinner. There is plenty of space created by the much thicker heat sink, leaving room for a bunch of components to be modular. The reason all these components are soldered in is to make it hard for users or small shops to do quick repairs and cheap upgrades. You must buy a new laptop for a RAM upgrade. Apple negotiates with component suppliers as a single buyer, drives the price of components down, keeps all the savings to itself, and re-sells the components at an exorbitant markup. It is ridiculous for anyone to think this has got anything to do with quality.
  - JoshTriplett 6y ago
    A modular battery would make the laptop bulkier. If a modular NVMe drive wouldn't, it's because other components have already have. And beyond that, you should be comparing to an Air or MacBook, if we're talking about devices that have been optimized at the expense of modularity. Also, soldering down RAM means you don't have to include support for negotiating the properties and quality of arbitrary RAM sticks, which you'd have to do with socketed RAM; that can mean booting faster and providing more performance. There are good reasons to design components to work specifically with other components. There are also good reasons to make devices more modular. Both have value, to different users with different use cases.

by sinak 6y ago

sushshshsh 6y ago

I am a real believer in right to repair. But I wonder, if we are unable to achieve legislative results, what can be done to build hardware on open standards?

harikb 6y ago
People have tried and failed. https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/2/12775922/google-project-ara-modular-phone-suspended-confirm https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/2/12775922/google-project-ar... I think there is no money in letting people repair and upgrade components.
- sushshshsh 6y ago
  Google kills off a lot of things lol! I'm more concerned with raspi and ARM and etc :) Only functionality missing would be valid cell tower functionality. Wifi and satellite would work just fine
- emptyparadise 6y ago
  Project Ara was so overdesigned that I'm almost convinced that it was a false flag.
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  That was a dumb idea to begin with. We don't need phones that work like lego. Just reverting to how phones worked 5 years ago would be a massive improvement. For almost all users all they will ever need to do is replace the battery. We used to be able to replace the battery with no tools or skills and the screen was pretty easy if you had some skill at all. The problem we face now is that the user can't fix anything at all, repair stores can fix things with great difficulty but they can't get new parts, and apple themselves can't even fix most things because the individual parts can't even be replaced on their own without replacing the whole thing. (The macbook keyboard which was prone to fail was attached with 50 rivets) All we need is user replaceable batteries, and for service centres to have access to all the parts they need. Lewis rossman can't get access to a chip that was >$1 on the old macbooks and is prone to fail. The newer version of the chip is impossible to source meaning those macbooks either get binned or pay apple for a whole new mobo which costs more than the laptop is worth.
  - eirini1 6y ago
    For real, all I want is for us to go back to the time where you could pop off the back cover of your phone by at worst unscrewing some screws, and the easily replace the battery.
    - munk-a 6y ago
      Then maybe Apple wouldn't need to send out a backdoor patch to underclock old devices. People that still want the long battery life the device had on purchase could go out and purchase a new battery (or attempt to force Apple to give them a new one) - those folks that are fine being tethered to a power outlet can choose to ignore the shortening battery lifespan. Either way, it'd move the decision into the hands of the consumer instead of Apple making that choice for you. And don't forget that Apple did get into trouble over their stupid underclocking "We hope no one notices that we don't allow people to repair things" patch.
  - phh 6y ago
    Then you could vote with your wallet and take a Fairphone :-)
    - oblio 6y ago
      This doesn't work. You can't rely on individual action for massive scale initiatives. Look how far that got us for the ozone layer (solved through governmental action), climate change (unsolved, because there is no governmental action), decent working conditions (everything achieved was through unions, protests and government intervention), etc
creato 6y ago
It just isn't something most people buying electronics care about, and there are real tradeoffs with size, weight, and aesthetic design choices. Combine those factors, and it's easy to see why the economics don't work. Making your device easily serviceable makes it more attractive to a tiny segment of the market, while making it less attractive to a much bigger segment.
- rasz 6y ago
  Right to repair is not about redesigning products to become easily serviceable, its about access to same tools and parts manufacturer uses for its own internal service.
  - novok 6y ago
    That can lead to a full on 'only replace' strategy, as you can see with canon's consumer printers.
    - R0b0t1 6y ago
      Unfortunately 'only replace' does seem to be workable for many devices, like TVs. At most you will be replacing entire boards.
- kiba 6y ago
  There's a difference between intentionally making a device harder to repair and making design tradeoff to satisfy certain consumer preference.
- munk-a 6y ago
  I disagree that making your device easily serviceable necessarily makes it less attractive to that portion of the population. I think that making your device brittle, fragile and easy to tamper with makes it less attractive to that portion of the population - having open documentation about the ways to approach repair and then letting the electronics repair shops all be able to repair your device makes it really attractive to pretty much all of the population. If your ease of repair comes at the cost of quality people will complain about the lack of quality - but nobody specifically wants something that can only be repaired by one market entrant that has full control over the price of repairs. Also, if you really want to emphasize quality you can run a repair certification program that distributes high priced stickers to aide in people's confidence.
deepstack 6y ago
Apple is hardware maker. Of course it make sense for them to design the hardware so only they can repair it. It is part of their business model.
- haezee 6y ago
  Except.. They're not the only ones who can repair it (even though they act like it). And their efforts to hurt independent repairshops show signs of antitrust, which is the topic at hand.
- djaychela 6y ago
  But in many cases this is achieved solely by supply-side restriction of replacement parts - stopping IC manufacturers from supplying those chips to people who could easily repair the device given those parts (macbook power IC springs to mind - same device as a commercial one, just a different pinout for the unobtainable Apple version), or making replacements locked down (such as on new macbooks - you can't just swap a screen now).
- sushshshsh 6y ago
  Should we also have to pay $990 for oil changes on a leased BMW? ^.^
munk-a 6y ago
The market could fix this issue if a significant enough chunk of consumers comprehended what they were losing when going with Apple and were willing to put their money where their mouth was. That's simply not going to happen and a market based solution is unreasonable - this is a time where subject matter experts need to help make an informed decision for the population at large.

egsmi 6y ago

I actually do support the right to repair. I even donated at the link you provided. But, as a hardware designer myself, the devil is in the details for something like this and people need to be really careful. https://repair.org/policy https://repair.org/policy "Unlocking: Legalize unlocking, adapting, and modifying any part of the machine, including software." The backdoor tools the FBI is asking for could easily fall into that category. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying, be very careful what you ask for.

soulofmischief 6y ago
Are you referring to the secure enclave?
- egsmi 6y ago
  That’s a part of the machine therefore it would technically be included by the statement given on the right to repair policy page. Obviously that page is meant to be a high level statement, it’s not law. But hopefully you can see my point.
  - soulofmischief 6y ago
    The secure enclave might end up being where the trap door goes. :(
harry8 6y ago
nonono. This is not the right place for that restriction at all. You should have the right to install backdoor tools on a technical level. If you install backdoor tools on equipment without permission from the owner or a properly executed warrant that is the crime and what must be prevented. Don't conflate restraining the FBI with being allowed to treat the device you paid for and own exactly as a device you paid for and own and is entirely your property.
- ponker 6y ago
  The FBI can commit crimes with impunity, that much has been made clear. So given that, the best thing you can do to your hardware is make sure that even criminals can't get in, which also restrains some of the rights of the original owner.

kyriakos 6y ago

Apple's workaround may work in US but don't think it will get very far in EU

jstummbillig 6y ago
I don't know. It's infuriating what Apple gets away with in Germany. For example right now to maybe get my 2018 MacBook Pro keyboard fixed, I have to relinquish the unit for a minimum of five workdays. Mind you nobody guarantees me that they will actually do the repair within the time frame or that it will in fact be covered by the extended warranty. This is just the minimum time they will hold the unit to have a look at it and tell me what's up. Cool.
- larsnystrom 6y ago
  I actually just handed in my 2016 MBP and got the keyboard replaced under their extended 4 year “butterfly mishap”-warranty. The new keyboard feels so much better than the last one. Plus they also replaced the battery because it’s all soldered together, so battery life got like 50% better. It cost me nothing and they did it when I was on vacation anyway, so it wasn’t much of a nuisance. No data loss at all. I live in Sweden but I think they sent it to Czech Republic for the replacement. Handed it in Monday evening and got it delivered to my door Tuesday the week thereafter. All in all it was totally worth it, but I’ve only had it for a few weeks now so who knows how long it’ll last this time.
  - jwandborg 6y ago
    Would you take vacation the next time your laptop breaks?
    - kyriakos 6y ago
      I'm not an apple fan and never owned an apple laptop but, even with other brands unless you buy their enterprise models (e.g. dell latitude, lenovo thinkpad) with the appropriate warranty you won't get same day hardware support in most of Europe. And even with onsite support with Dell I had a case when the battery died completely and the laptop could only work when plugged in, they did show up at the office, they checked it out diagnosed that the battery is dead (no kidding), and came back 2 days later with a new battery.

JoshTriplett 6y ago

This has the same problem I've seen with other such proposals: it joins together "you should have the legal right to repair" with "manufacturers should be forced to make only devices with modular replaceable parts". The latter sounds good in theory, except if it means thicker, heavier, less optimized devices. By all means offer such devices, but don't take away the option of devices at a different point on the tradeoff between modularity and thin/light/optimized. You should absolutely have the legal right to open, tinker with, repair, or otherwise mod any device you own. That doesn't mean prohibiting the legal right to manufacture, sell, purchase, or use devices whose design trades off simplicity of repair for some other property that people purchasing it want more.

AriaMinaei 6y ago
> except if it means thicker, heavier, less optimized devices Speaking specifically of my MBP Retina, and looking inside, I fail to see how eg. a soldered NVME would make the laptop any thinner. There is plenty of space created by the much thicker heat sink, leaving room for a bunch of components to be modular. The reason all these components are soldered in is to make it hard for users or small shops to do quick repairs and cheap upgrades. You must buy a new laptop for a RAM upgrade. Apple negotiates with component suppliers as a single buyer, drives the price of components down, keeps all the savings to itself, and re-sells the components at an exorbitant markup. It is ridiculous for anyone to think this has got anything to do with quality.
- JoshTriplett 6y ago
  A modular battery would make the laptop bulkier. If a modular NVMe drive wouldn't, it's because other components have already have. And beyond that, you should be comparing to an Air or MacBook, if we're talking about devices that have been optimized at the expense of modularity. Also, soldering down RAM means you don't have to include support for negotiating the properties and quality of arbitrary RAM sticks, which you'd have to do with socketed RAM; that can mean booting faster and providing more performance. There are good reasons to design components to work specifically with other components. There are also good reasons to make devices more modular. Both have value, to different users with different use cases.