7 ms·

In 2005 a friend brought me a USB thumbdrive he had just bought for a few hundred RMB. It had apparently 10GB on it. He couldn't figure out why his files were

by beilabs 16y ago

In 2005 a friend brought me a USB thumbdrive he had just bought for a few hundred RMB. It had apparently 10GB on it. He couldn't figure out why his files were not opening after saving them to the drive. The entire space on the drive was about 100MB but as with this article reported 10GB. As always, China is great at faking stuff....I loved the line from Kung fu panda, I've only seen paintings of that painting....

dcx 16y ago
I bought one of these in Shanghai last year! Sadly I only realised it was acting strange when I got back from vacation (It had a perfect plastic casing, labels, little paper manual; we even tested it in store!). From my googling at the time, what they did was something like take a standard 128mb stick and flash it with some interesting firmware - there's even a utility out there which can help you figure out how big your flash drive _really_ is. For the price of the drive I thought it was a good business lesson. It implies the existence of an entire supply chain - crooked engineers/programmers, distributers, retailers, and maybe even government, manufacturers, building managers, etc. All to satisfy the market's "need" for the product to appear to work for longer than someone's visit lasts. An interesting/scary demonstration of total free-market capitalism.
- roel_v 16y ago
  "Look there's a guy selling heroin over there! An interesting/scary demonstration of total free-market capitalism!" /rollseyes
  - billybob 16y ago
    I think maybe the point of the parent comment, or at least the point that I see, is that there is benefit to the consumer in having things like trademarks be enforced. Copyright and patents are intended to benefit the public by incentivizing creators to make more stuff. Whether that works is debatable. But trademark is intended (or at least has the effect) of helping consumers identify a product's maker. If I buy an Acme Rocket Sled, it's because I've heard that Acme makes good ones. It sucks for me if I can never tell a real Acme from a fake one; I can't purchase with any confidence. And while maybe the blogosphere could help me find out where to get real Acmes, it really seems more efficient if we just outlaw making knockoffs and penalize those who do. If it's not Acme, I want it to have a different label.
    - mhb 16y ago
      It sure seems like the point was to take a gratuitous swipe at free market capitalism. And if it wasn't the lack of clarity regarding the actual target of the gratuitous swipe deserves at least a modicum of disapprobation.
      - SoftwareMaven 16y ago
        That is only true if you are if the mindset that there can be nothing wrong with unfettered, free-market capitalism. While it is certainly better than many other economic philosophies, it would be a mistake to pretend it is perfect.
        mhb 16y ago
        It is also true if you prefer a reasoned argument to a gratuitous swipe.
  - raganwald 16y ago
    I don't get your sarcasm. Selling heroin is a very good example of how unfettered free market capitalism leads to circumstances where people sell things that are harmful to their customers. Likewise tobacco. Likewise unsafe cars, Baby clothes made out of plastic that sticks to the skin when exposed to flame, and many other things that we have deemed enough of a harm to society that we attempt to fetter at least part of the free market. So yes, obviously, heroin is a good example of places where we have decided that the free market is a bit too free. This is another example of a place where the free market might be a bit too free. Is there anything wrong with that?
    - joe_the_user 16y ago
      And oddly enough, Recreational drugs are a place where I'd say attempts at regulation have extremely counter-productive. IE, look at the massive drug war in Mexico. That could you buy tobacco/heroin/alcohol if you wanted it is the worst argument against a pure libertarian society. The better argument against a pure libertarian society is that you might find heroin in your soup and your cough medicine even if you didn't want it.
      - raganwald 16y ago
        Sorry, I am not going to be dragged into an argument about recreational drug use in a thread about bogus USB drives. Nor am I going to argue the truth of an argument about bogus USB drives being a necessary side effect of this wonderful free market capitalism the US claims to enjoy. What I claim is that making arguments about free market capitalism in light of behaviour around selling bogus USB drives is reasonable enough that it contributes positively to HN, and that while you or anyone else might disagree, such an argument does not deserve scorn.
  - giardini 16y ago
    This is sad, but I read recently that there is extremely heavy demand for Afghanistan opium and that the demand is driven by the Chinese market.
- wisty 16y ago
  If you've looked around China a little more, you will realize how lean manufacturing can be. The plastic casing if probably from a commodity supplier, who doesn't know or care what the buyer uses it for. The labels and manuel, likewise. The engineer, manufacturer, and distributer could be one hacker, a few mates flashing the drives, and a couple of drivers. As for the retailers, building managers, and government, it's likely that you bought it in a tourist shopping area, probably near a long-distance railway station or a tourist attraction. Tourists (generally Chinese tourists from other cities) who shop in those places get ripped off, and nobody notices, because they never complain. They just fly home, and curse themselves for shopping in a tourist trap. In China, you never shop in tourist traps. You don't eat anything unless its in a side street, where the locals (who prey on the tourists) eat. You don't even get a taxi parked in front of a 5 star hotel, or bus depot. Get a bus, walk out of the tourist zone, or flag a taxi that just happens to be passing by. (Note, the buses can be dangerous if they aren't local buses. Some special tourist buses disgorge the passengers into a small village, where taxi drivers insist on exorbitant fees to take you back to civilization).
  - dcx 16y ago
    I did not buy it in a tourist trap - am very aware of this as family does business there. I believe I was in this mall: http://tinyscreenfuls.com/2008/04/photos-shanghais-pc-mall-5-stories-of-computer-and-electronic-goodness/ http://tinyscreenfuls.com/2008/04/photos-shanghais-pc-mall-5... Pretty much nothing but locals. If you wanted to buy a PC, they'd sit you down on a little stool and offer you a drink, then fill out a form with you in Chinese. (Surprisingly, it turned out the prices were within 10% of the cheapest Australian importers [MSY/CPL] for many things - even as I was walking away they couldn't go lower!) I did buy it from a smaller stall similar to photo #6. But it was still quite surprising to find it was dodgy - the mall didn't even sell pirated software! Perhaps if they can tell you're not local they pull out the knockoffs. Good point about the lean manufacturing - although the number of people who've encountered this online is what implied to me that it's a reasonably large operation. Hard to say, really.
    - wisty 16y ago
      I think the high prices are due to import taxes, which can be brutal. I guess you were just unlucky with the scam then. Still, it's worth keeping in mind, "you don't get what you don't pay for". If the price is under 1/4 that of a reputable brand, there's likely to be some kind of problem.
- millerc 16y ago
  It's not as technically difficult as it seems - see this discssion somewhere else in the thread. Definitely no crooked supply chain needed, except for the "don't ask, don't tell" mindset. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2419303 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2419303
- igorlev 16y ago
  A lot of times there are jokes about the silly and overprotective American consumer culture. What a lot of people don't realize is the sheer amount of useless mental energy you need to expand in other areas of the world, double checking everyday purchases and never really trusting what you buy. Sure sometimes it can get a little extreme (I'm looking at you McDonald's coffee) but in a lot of cases it's an efficient system that frees up your attention and focus on more important things then checking whether your milk contains poison. Personally, I think this over protectiveness is actually a sign of an advanced economy taking specialization to it's logical extent. Not having it is an economic cost in the long term.
  - solid 16y ago
    Of course, it can be effectively argued that standards bodies can be non-profit rather than government. A truly free market and "regulation" are not at all mutually exclusive.
endgame 16y ago
I was at the climbing gym yesterday and saw a notice that Petzl had found Chinese knockoffs of their gear being sold that failed at loads well below their stated safety limits. Shonky hard drives are one thing, but dodgy climbing gear is another.
- JonnieCache 16y ago
  Christ, thats terrible. I'll make sure to tell my climbing friends.
- noodle 16y ago
  this exists for sport fencing equipment, as well and resulted in some manufacturers from china being banned in europe.
  - icegreentea 16y ago
    This exists for -everything- Even razor blades. http://reviews.ebay.com/FAKE-GILLETTE-MACH3-amp-FUSION-RAZOR-BLADES_W0QQugidZ10000000006497974 http://reviews.ebay.com/FAKE-GILLETTE-MACH3-amp-FUSION-RAZOR...
    - eli 16y ago
      I ended up with some of those once. What's annoying is that if they spent half as long making a sharp blade as they did making the packaging look real, I wouldn't even care that it's a fake.
    - noodle 16y ago
      difference here was that they weren't fake or counterfit. they staged and bribed their way into getting their stuff certified, despite the production line being way under quality.
- yan 16y ago
  Yup, when I caught that story on the climbing blogs, it really terrified me. Petzl has since released this chart for helping identify the knock-offs: http://www.petzl.com/files/fckfiles/file/PetzlAmerica/Counterfeits/PETZL_PRODUCT_AUTHENTIFICATION-US.pdf http://www.petzl.com/files/fckfiles/file/PetzlAmerica/Counte...
HerraBRE 16y ago
About a year ago I bought what I thought was a 32GB USB drive - turns out it was only 1GB with dodgy firmware. This was in Bolivia. I managed to get it exchanged (in itself a story: http://bre.klaki.net/dagbok/faerslur/1263420810.shtml http://bre.klaki.net/dagbok/faerslur/1263420810.shtml), and got the feeling that the merchant herself didn't even know she was selling counterfeit stuff.
- hendi_ 16y ago
  Again no receipt, this time because the person selling it was avoiding tax... You should always insist on getting a receipt, so the shop owner has to pay taxes. Withholding taxes hurts the country's economy and only plays in the hands of corrupt regimes.
  - HerraBRE 16y ago
    Theoretically, sure. In practice, things in that part of the world are very, very poorly regulated and people are just trying to get by as well as they can. If I was going to fight every single social problem I saw on that trip, I wouldn't have gotten very far.
  - VladRussian 16y ago
    >Withholding taxes hurts the country's economy and only plays in the hands of corrupt regimes. And paying taxes into the pockets of corrupt regimes?
    - eru 16y ago
      Interestingly, regimes who can rely on revenue other than taxes (say, oil) are often even more corrupt.
      - VladRussian 16y ago
        Yes, what you pointing out to is the situation when the beast can't be starved by decreasing of the tax revenue alone. Having abundant source of cheap money, like oil, the beast just grows monstrously bigger and fatter.
nsfmc 16y ago
"I've only seen paintings of that painting...." off topic, but there's an artist[1] that exploits this to really good effect, really makes you think about what place 'the original' has in art especially for pieces that are entrenched in the public consciousness (i.e. mona lisa, warhol, etc) But that sort of meta thing only works with art i think, not so much thumb drives! :) [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_Sturtevant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_Sturtevant

by beilabs 16y ago

dcx 16y ago

I bought one of these in Shanghai last year! Sadly I only realised it was acting strange when I got back from vacation (It had a perfect plastic casing, labels, little paper manual; we even tested it in store!). From my googling at the time, what they did was something like take a standard 128mb stick and flash it with some interesting firmware - there's even a utility out there which can help you figure out how big your flash drive _really_ is. For the price of the drive I thought it was a good business lesson. It implies the existence of an entire supply chain - crooked engineers/programmers, distributers, retailers, and maybe even government, manufacturers, building managers, etc. All to satisfy the market's "need" for the product to appear to work for longer than someone's visit lasts. An interesting/scary demonstration of total free-market capitalism.

roel_v 16y ago
"Look there's a guy selling heroin over there! An interesting/scary demonstration of total free-market capitalism!" /rollseyes
- billybob 16y ago
  I think maybe the point of the parent comment, or at least the point that I see, is that there is benefit to the consumer in having things like trademarks be enforced. Copyright and patents are intended to benefit the public by incentivizing creators to make more stuff. Whether that works is debatable. But trademark is intended (or at least has the effect) of helping consumers identify a product's maker. If I buy an Acme Rocket Sled, it's because I've heard that Acme makes good ones. It sucks for me if I can never tell a real Acme from a fake one; I can't purchase with any confidence. And while maybe the blogosphere could help me find out where to get real Acmes, it really seems more efficient if we just outlaw making knockoffs and penalize those who do. If it's not Acme, I want it to have a different label.
  - mhb 16y ago
    It sure seems like the point was to take a gratuitous swipe at free market capitalism. And if it wasn't the lack of clarity regarding the actual target of the gratuitous swipe deserves at least a modicum of disapprobation.
    - SoftwareMaven 16y ago
      That is only true if you are if the mindset that there can be nothing wrong with unfettered, free-market capitalism. While it is certainly better than many other economic philosophies, it would be a mistake to pretend it is perfect.
      - mhb 16y ago
        It is also true if you prefer a reasoned argument to a gratuitous swipe.
- raganwald 16y ago
  I don't get your sarcasm. Selling heroin is a very good example of how unfettered free market capitalism leads to circumstances where people sell things that are harmful to their customers. Likewise tobacco. Likewise unsafe cars, Baby clothes made out of plastic that sticks to the skin when exposed to flame, and many other things that we have deemed enough of a harm to society that we attempt to fetter at least part of the free market. So yes, obviously, heroin is a good example of places where we have decided that the free market is a bit too free. This is another example of a place where the free market might be a bit too free. Is there anything wrong with that?
  - joe_the_user 16y ago
    And oddly enough, Recreational drugs are a place where I'd say attempts at regulation have extremely counter-productive. IE, look at the massive drug war in Mexico. That could you buy tobacco/heroin/alcohol if you wanted it is the worst argument against a pure libertarian society. The better argument against a pure libertarian society is that you might find heroin in your soup and your cough medicine even if you didn't want it.
    - raganwald 16y ago
      Sorry, I am not going to be dragged into an argument about recreational drug use in a thread about bogus USB drives. Nor am I going to argue the truth of an argument about bogus USB drives being a necessary side effect of this wonderful free market capitalism the US claims to enjoy. What I claim is that making arguments about free market capitalism in light of behaviour around selling bogus USB drives is reasonable enough that it contributes positively to HN, and that while you or anyone else might disagree, such an argument does not deserve scorn.
- giardini 16y ago
  This is sad, but I read recently that there is extremely heavy demand for Afghanistan opium and that the demand is driven by the Chinese market.
wisty 16y ago
If you've looked around China a little more, you will realize how lean manufacturing can be. The plastic casing if probably from a commodity supplier, who doesn't know or care what the buyer uses it for. The labels and manuel, likewise. The engineer, manufacturer, and distributer could be one hacker, a few mates flashing the drives, and a couple of drivers. As for the retailers, building managers, and government, it's likely that you bought it in a tourist shopping area, probably near a long-distance railway station or a tourist attraction. Tourists (generally Chinese tourists from other cities) who shop in those places get ripped off, and nobody notices, because they never complain. They just fly home, and curse themselves for shopping in a tourist trap. In China, you never shop in tourist traps. You don't eat anything unless its in a side street, where the locals (who prey on the tourists) eat. You don't even get a taxi parked in front of a 5 star hotel, or bus depot. Get a bus, walk out of the tourist zone, or flag a taxi that just happens to be passing by. (Note, the buses can be dangerous if they aren't local buses. Some special tourist buses disgorge the passengers into a small village, where taxi drivers insist on exorbitant fees to take you back to civilization).
- dcx 16y ago
  I did not buy it in a tourist trap - am very aware of this as family does business there. I believe I was in this mall: http://tinyscreenfuls.com/2008/04/photos-shanghais-pc-mall-5-stories-of-computer-and-electronic-goodness/ http://tinyscreenfuls.com/2008/04/photos-shanghais-pc-mall-5... Pretty much nothing but locals. If you wanted to buy a PC, they'd sit you down on a little stool and offer you a drink, then fill out a form with you in Chinese. (Surprisingly, it turned out the prices were within 10% of the cheapest Australian importers [MSY/CPL] for many things - even as I was walking away they couldn't go lower!) I did buy it from a smaller stall similar to photo #6. But it was still quite surprising to find it was dodgy - the mall didn't even sell pirated software! Perhaps if they can tell you're not local they pull out the knockoffs. Good point about the lean manufacturing - although the number of people who've encountered this online is what implied to me that it's a reasonably large operation. Hard to say, really.
  - wisty 16y ago
    I think the high prices are due to import taxes, which can be brutal. I guess you were just unlucky with the scam then. Still, it's worth keeping in mind, "you don't get what you don't pay for". If the price is under 1/4 that of a reputable brand, there's likely to be some kind of problem.
millerc 16y ago
It's not as technically difficult as it seems - see this discssion somewhere else in the thread. Definitely no crooked supply chain needed, except for the "don't ask, don't tell" mindset. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2419303 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2419303
igorlev 16y ago
A lot of times there are jokes about the silly and overprotective American consumer culture. What a lot of people don't realize is the sheer amount of useless mental energy you need to expand in other areas of the world, double checking everyday purchases and never really trusting what you buy. Sure sometimes it can get a little extreme (I'm looking at you McDonald's coffee) but in a lot of cases it's an efficient system that frees up your attention and focus on more important things then checking whether your milk contains poison. Personally, I think this over protectiveness is actually a sign of an advanced economy taking specialization to it's logical extent. Not having it is an economic cost in the long term.
- solid 16y ago
  Of course, it can be effectively argued that standards bodies can be non-profit rather than government. A truly free market and "regulation" are not at all mutually exclusive.

endgame 16y ago

I was at the climbing gym yesterday and saw a notice that Petzl had found Chinese knockoffs of their gear being sold that failed at loads well below their stated safety limits. Shonky hard drives are one thing, but dodgy climbing gear is another.

JonnieCache 16y ago
Christ, thats terrible. I'll make sure to tell my climbing friends.
noodle 16y ago
this exists for sport fencing equipment, as well and resulted in some manufacturers from china being banned in europe.
- icegreentea 16y ago
  This exists for -everything- Even razor blades. http://reviews.ebay.com/FAKE-GILLETTE-MACH3-amp-FUSION-RAZOR-BLADES_W0QQugidZ10000000006497974 http://reviews.ebay.com/FAKE-GILLETTE-MACH3-amp-FUSION-RAZOR...
  - eli 16y ago
    I ended up with some of those once. What's annoying is that if they spent half as long making a sharp blade as they did making the packaging look real, I wouldn't even care that it's a fake.
  - noodle 16y ago
    difference here was that they weren't fake or counterfit. they staged and bribed their way into getting their stuff certified, despite the production line being way under quality.
yan 16y ago
Yup, when I caught that story on the climbing blogs, it really terrified me. Petzl has since released this chart for helping identify the knock-offs: http://www.petzl.com/files/fckfiles/file/PetzlAmerica/Counterfeits/PETZL_PRODUCT_AUTHENTIFICATION-US.pdf http://www.petzl.com/files/fckfiles/file/PetzlAmerica/Counte...

HerraBRE 16y ago

About a year ago I bought what I thought was a 32GB USB drive - turns out it was only 1GB with dodgy firmware. This was in Bolivia. I managed to get it exchanged (in itself a story: http://bre.klaki.net/dagbok/faerslur/1263420810.shtml http://bre.klaki.net/dagbok/faerslur/1263420810.shtml), and got the feeling that the merchant herself didn't even know she was selling counterfeit stuff.

hendi_ 16y ago
Again no receipt, this time because the person selling it was avoiding tax... You should always insist on getting a receipt, so the shop owner has to pay taxes. Withholding taxes hurts the country's economy and only plays in the hands of corrupt regimes.
- HerraBRE 16y ago
  Theoretically, sure. In practice, things in that part of the world are very, very poorly regulated and people are just trying to get by as well as they can. If I was going to fight every single social problem I saw on that trip, I wouldn't have gotten very far.
- VladRussian 16y ago
  >Withholding taxes hurts the country's economy and only plays in the hands of corrupt regimes. And paying taxes into the pockets of corrupt regimes?
  - eru 16y ago
    Interestingly, regimes who can rely on revenue other than taxes (say, oil) are often even more corrupt.
    - VladRussian 16y ago
      Yes, what you pointing out to is the situation when the beast can't be starved by decreasing of the tax revenue alone. Having abundant source of cheap money, like oil, the beast just grows monstrously bigger and fatter.

nsfmc 16y ago

"I've only seen paintings of that painting...." off topic, but there's an artist[1] that exploits this to really good effect, really makes you think about what place 'the original' has in art especially for pieces that are entrenched in the public consciousness (i.e. mona lisa, warhol, etc) But that sort of meta thing only works with art i think, not so much thumb drives! :) [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_Sturtevant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_Sturtevant