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How China’s Expanding Fishing Fleet Is Depleting the World’s Oceans
- oblio 6y agoWe badly need some sort of industrial fish farming at a large scale. Oceanic fishing at this point is basically like hunting gathering at an industrial scale: we just catch whatever we can and who cares if it grows back, not our problem, "nature" will take care of it. The same way we seed, till, etc., we should be doing the same thing with oceans and "hunting" aka fishing should only be allowed as a hobby. In a somewhat "positive" side effect of what they're doing, traditional Chinese medicine will probably go extinct together will all the fish and animal species they will wipe off the face of the Earth...
- microcolonel 6y ago> We badly need some sort of industrial fish farming at a large scale. Even if we invented it, PRC would most likely not use it. > In a somewhat "positive" side effect of what they're doing, traditional Chinese medicine will probably go extinct together will all the fish and animal species they will wipe off the face of the Earth... Unfortunately, this probably only happens when everything more exotic than common farm animals has been eaten to extinction.
- oblio 6y agoWhy wouldn't they? They're not irrational. I understand their desire to keep their newly achieved standards of living and I imagine they don't want to be dependent on foreign seas, especially as these situations can cause conflicts. They also have a pretty big EEZ, about 1 million sqkm. Seems more than enough to have some huge fish farms.
- flyingfences 6y agoThey're not irrational. They're quite rational. They'll go for whatever is cheapest. For a long, long time, commercial fishing as they currently do it will be the cheapest way to do it. It's darn difficult to beat the cost-effectiveness of just harvesting the grown fish without any further involvement in the process. Especially given the labor conditions [1] exploited by these sorts of operations, there's no way that any domestically-operated farm could beat them out. [1] I've been reading Ian Urbina's Outlaw Ocean on a recommendation from another comment somewhere on HN. It's eye-opening, to say the least.
- oblio 6y ago> For a long, long time, commercial fishing as they currently do it will be the cheapest way to do it. See, here is where I argue that's not the case. Commercial fishing has increased incredibly in the past 20 years or so. We don't have a "long, long time", unlike for oil, because we can't find new fish "reserves". We pretty much know where all the existing fish we'd like/want to eat is. I'd be surprised if fishing goes up at the current rate and we have fish to eat for more than 20 years, unless we switch to the sane thing: large scale, regulated and sustainable fish farming. Now we're basically a few years before the Fishing "Dust Bowl". Or, alternatively, we figuratively "boil the oceans" and persuade everyone who currently eats fish to not eat fish. I wish people trying this alternate approach good luck! :-)
- scarmig 6y ago> Even if we invented it, PRC would most likely not use it. Something like 2/3 of the world's industrial fish farming happens in China.
- mytailorisrich 6y agoAs it happens, China has extensive fish farming. It is huge and China may be the country where it is the most developed. It may also be helped by the fact that Chinese eat quite a lot of fresh water fish compared to what we eat in Western countries. Of course an issue is that it creates further pressure on agriculture/traditional fishing to produce fish feed...
- rich_sasha 6y agoFarmed fish are fed wild-caught fish generally, so their environmental impact is comparable. There is an ongoing effort to remove that from the chain, but it remains an unsolved problem.
- oblio 6y agoWell, I have a feeling that the resolution of this problem will accelerate in the following decades. With China and other developing countries rising, we're going to need to feed 2-3 billion people more at developed country standards. We'll literally suck all the fish out of the ocean at the rate we're going, with our current processes.
- usrusr 6y ago(Salt water) fish farming is still hunting on an industrial scale because the farmed fish are mostly carnivorous and are fed with feed derived to a large part from hunted fish. It's mostly a tool to strip the oceans even harder (with fish farms converting undesirable catch into species people like to eat, everything becomes a target)
- giancarlostoro 6y agoThey should farm the prey too then? I still wonder where those mice that pet snakes eat come from. Never had a pet snake so I don't know much about them.
- oblio 6y agoYeah, I agree. Otherwise it's like saying we can't grow corn because you need water, minerals and these days, fertilizers. When we really want to, we can take care of the whole chain.
- usrusr 6y agoIf you continue that line of thought long enough you end up declaring the entirety of the world's oceans one big fish farm and truly sustainable fishing that doesn't deplete populations your method of farming.
- giancarlostoro 6y agoThe alternative is farming fish you can feed other things you can grow instead. Ultimately artificial meats and what have you will be the ultimate goal to sustain the whole system.
- globuous 6y agoI don't understand why we eat carnivorous fish. It'd be like feeding on lions... I read some of piketty's book, capital and idéologie, and he sources work that show that if India and China have historically had a greater population, it's because Europeans love meat. And feeding a population on meat requires much more agricultural space than feeding on veggies and cereals alone. I had always wondered why it was, and I liked this explanation!
- geddy 6y agoWhat we need is to stop consuming animals and animal products, or we’ll keep having economy destroying pandemics. Not to mention the obvious problem that farming is horrendous for the animals. Animals aren’t some inanimate object.
- oblio 6y agoWe need to be realistic. Reeducating several billion people from something very addictive, culturally engrained and with no direct negative effects for consumers is almost impossible.
- momokoko 6y agoGlobal pandemics are not direct negative impacts? We have several documented(h1n1 etc) significant loss of life events due to animal agriculture. No more silent downvoting. People are dying and will continue to die as these continue to happen until grown adults get some self discipline and stop eating meat.
- deelowe 6y agoI think the parent's point is well proven your exact example. There is a significant portion of the globe who think the pandemic isn't real or was caused by humans.
- oblio 6y agoYou basically read my mind. I didn't want to say it outright to avoid this hot topic.
- crucio 6y agoTypical response of HN to downvote comments like the parents, just because it's doesn't suit their own lifestyle.
- oblio 6y ago
- SaintGhurka 6y ago"industrial fish farming at a large scale" They're doing that. Bring up an areal view of china's coast, zoom in on most any protected bay and you can see they have some kind of aquatic farming going on at a pretty impressive scale. https://www.google.com/maps/@23.8785992,117.6354366,322m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@23.8785992,117.6354366,322m/dat... https://www.google.com/maps/@23.6576045,117.4483416,171m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@23.6576045,117.4483416,171m/dat... https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=d1e87c14-b29f-4173-a4f5-cbd56fb24cde&cp=29.350096~121.934377&lvl=16&style=h&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027 https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=d1e87c14-b29f-4173-a4f5-cbd56...
- ardy42 6y ago>> We badly need some sort of industrial fish farming at a large scale. > They're doing that. IIRC, most farmed fish are fed with fish meal, which is basically less-desirable wild-caught fish, so fish farming does not take the pressure off the oceans as much as you'd think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_meal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_meal > The production and large-scale use of fishmeal are controversial. The lucrative market for fishmeal as a feed encourages corporate fisheries not to limit their yields of by-catch (from which fish meal is made), and thus leads to depletion of ecosystems, environmental damage, and the collapse of local fisheries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_farming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_farming > Farming carnivorous fish, such as salmon, does not always reduce pressure on wild fisheries. Carnivorous farmed fish are usually fed fishmeal and fish oil extracted from wild forage fish.
- bhupy 6y agoIt's a good example of the Tragedy of the Commons. We mostly solved that problem on land, and even ended up with industrial farming by allowing people to own pieces of land to run their own farming operations. Would be nice to be able to replace off-shore oil rigs with off-shore fishing farms that sell the produce directly to retail markets. Might even be able to run aquatic "farm to table" restaurants!
- MiroF 6y ago> Would be nice to be able to replace off-shore oil rigs with off-shore fishing farms that sell the produce directly to retail markets. Might even be able to run aquatic "farm to table" restaurants! There's definitely at least an order magnitude more offshore aquaculture farms than there are oil-rigs currently.
- ardy42 6y ago> It's a good example of the Tragedy of the Commons. We mostly solved that problem on land, and even ended up with industrial farming by allowing people to own pieces of land to run their own farming operations. That's a myth. This "problem" wasn't much of a problem, historically, since real-world communities would spontaneously develop regulatory practices to prevent over-exploitation of the commons: > Political scientist Elinor Ostrom, who was awarded 2009's Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences for her work on the issue, and others revisited Hardin's work in 1999.[45] They found the tragedy of the commons not as prevalent or as difficult to solve as Hardin maintained, since locals have often come up with solutions to the commons problem themselves.[46] For example, it was found that a commons in the Swiss Alps has been run by a collective of farmers there to their mutual and individual benefit since 1517, in spite of the farmers also having access to their own farmland. In general, it is in the interest of the users of a commons to keep them functioning and so complex social schemes are often invented by the users for maintaining them at optimum efficiency.[47][48] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons#Non-governmental_solution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons#Non-gov...) Privatization is one solution, but it seems to often be falsely portrayed as the only solution. The wiki article has a decent list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons#Solutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons#Solutio...
- scythe 6y agoAquaculture is huge in Asia. China produces 61% of all of the farmed fish in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaculture#/media/File:Global_aquaculture_production_by_country_2010.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaculture#/media/File:Global... What we need is to reduce the popularity of consuming "predator" fish species -- there is an abundant supply of forage fish, but these are often caught and fed to farmed fish! Sardines and herring aren't popular today, but they'd be a lot more appetizing and sustainable if we just froze them on the boat instead of grinding them into fishmeal to be fed to tilapia or salmon. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forage_fish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forage_fish
- rdtwo 6y agoBut they are also overfished and under pressure
- scythe 6y agoThey are overfished largely in order to be fed to other animals. Similarly we clear too much land to farm corn but we do it because it gets fed to animals. But nobody would refer to this to argue against eating corn. I don't know how to quantify the potential sustainable yield of forage fish vs. the human diet, but I know that eating small fish is more sustainable than feeding them to larger fish and eating those.
- wk0 6y agoMaybe something like this[0] will become more common. Seems to have had some success in increasing the Salmon population (via plankton boom) but was obviously quite controversial. [0] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fertilizing-ocean-with-iron-to-save-salmon-and-earn-money/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fertilizing-ocean...
- jbob2000 6y agoWhat are they doing with all that squid? If the market price of the squid doesn't cover the cost of extraction, then that must mean there isn't much demand for the product.
- rich_sasha 6y agoCentrally planned economies don’t really factor such things in. Extract one resource at a loss to “book” a gain elsewhere. So they probably think net they are profiting from this. But then, centrally planned economies are not efficient at decision-making...
- meddlepal 6y agoI dont think China counts as a centrally planned economy. Its a weird state-capitalism hybrid. The government has a say in corporate affairs but doesn’t set production goals.
- kingkawn 6y agoThat is exactly how it works over in our “unplanned” economies too
- gruez 6y agoYou mean within companies? Those are defacto planned economies.
- learc83 6y agoIs there some kind of subsidy for squid maybe?
- f00zz 6y agoCommercial scale cell-cultured meat can't arrive soon enough.
- bzb4 6y agoI worry that once that time arrives the government will force us to consume it by severely taxing actual meat.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- geddy 6y agoGreat, meat SHOULD cost a fortune. The actual cost of meat is not what you pay for it, the only reason it’s even affordable is because the taxpayer shoulders the burden of the farm subsidies. Cut those out and a $5 Big Mac would cost almost $15. Add to that the environmental impact, insane water usage, and the fact that meat production will continue to destroy economies through pandemics, and it should cost 10-15x more than it does now.
- baddox 6y agoYou don’t need taxes to offset subsidies, of course. You just need to end the subsidies. But yeah, there are likely major environmental externalities that could be eliminated by taxation.
- axaxs 6y agoI don't have the numbers in front of me, but this doesn't seem like it could be true. My Dad always raised cattle as a pastime, just a handful, one for meat and sold the rest. Never subsidized, and he usually broke just about even. A big mac has a fifth pound of beef. $75 a pound for ground beef? He'd buy hundreds. So would I, and everyone else. Why bother cutting out steaks, just grind the whole thing down. So I'm curious where that number comes from.
- deleted 6y ago
- dr-detroit 6y agoYale takes money from Fa Loon Gong this article is biased.
- evancox100 6y agoAnyone else catch this? First: “The Chinese government says its distant-water fishing fleet, or those vessels that travel far from China’s coast, numbers roughly 2,600, but other research, such as this study by the Overseas Development Institute (ODI), puts this number closer to 17,000”. Several paragraphs later: “More recently, the Chinese government has stopped calling for an expansion of its distant-water fishing fleet and released a five-year plan in 2017 that restricts the total number of offshore fishing vessels to under 3,000 by 2021.“ Why would you need to announce a plan to reduce your fleet to below 3,000 if it’s only “officially“ at 2,700? Is this a case of inconsistent propaganda?
- La1n 6y agoRestrict =/= reduce
- xboxnolifes 6y agoWhy would they need a 5 year plan to "restrict" their already goal-achieving fleet size if it was not for reducing?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- goodcanadian 6y agoTo limit future growth?
- sidlls 6y agoThe "by" in "by 2021" implies the restriction is currently in breach. This may be a matter of translation differences, but I doubt it. It's more likely that the lying left hand doesn't have its story straight with the lying right hand of the CCP propaganda units.
- freeopinion 6y ago
- sradman 6y agoRelated HN thread Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23926128 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23926128
- euix 6y agoDon't forget behind China, you got India, SEA, the rest of Africa which will experience a population boom this century. How we going to feed all these people when their living standards go up? We need to get to mars fast.
- hnhg 6y agoHow is making Mars inhabitable easier than fixing the problems here on Earth?
- richthegeek 6y agoThe same reason writing a program from scratch is more appealing than the pain of refactoring someone else's code.
- throw51319 6y agoUgh my whole job the past few months has been solving problems in other peoples' code, and it's already pretty complicated code. So painful.
- creaturemachine 6y agoLOL there's no fish on Mars.
- cltsang 6y agoDespite the growing population, we collectively have and will have enough resources to feed everyone on earth. The major problem is skewed consumption and wastage due to structural poverty. That should be our focus, rather than expanding to another planet.
- rrrrrrrrrrrr 6y agoYou are not even making an effort to feed them at their current population, so the end of your argument kind of answers itself.
- holografix 6y agoWe need less people in the world. Our only hope to avoid mass human suffering is that as more women get educated and independent they reduce the number of children they’ll conceive to 1 or 2.
- lkramer 6y agoThe world is moving towards a shrinking population, but it takes time for it to take effect: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/17/worlds-population-is-projected-to-nearly-stop-growing-by-the-end-of-the-century/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/17/worlds-popu...
- f00zz 6y ago> 1 or 2 This is already the case in most of the world, including many developing countries.
- refresher 6y agoIs the number of people the problem or is extreme consumption and waste, particular at the top, the issue?
- BurningFrog 6y agoThis was Chinese government policy for decades. It caused immense human suffering. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/120114/understanding-chinas-one-child-policy.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/120114/under... Personally, I think people are an asset, not a burden, and the greatest things in the world! That's right, I mean you, dear reader. Straighten that back!
- kwanbix 6y agoSomething doesn't ads up. If we are 50 couples, and we all have 2 kids, when the original parents die we are still 100 people. If 50 couples have 1 kid, wen the original parents die, you have half of the population. If they did that for some many years, how come they kept growing?
- warmcat 6y agoAs long as Chinese government exists, there will be no world peace and no sustainable approach to anything. The few people in power in the Chinese government will always incite their masses and cause destruction by pitting us vs them.
- MichaelApproved 6y agoThis statement can be used to describe so many countries, it’s odd you’re just saying it about the Chinese govt.
- belly_joe 6y agoThere are many reasons why China catches heat for this. China is big so when it does things like this it tends to have a larger impact than other countries' practices. Also it has been growing very fast, and we tend to notice things that are changing. China's assertiveness on the world stage also causes anxiety which has a halo effect on China's other actions/policies.
- flyingfences 6y ago...because the thread is about the Chinese fishing fleet?
- sidlls 6y agoNo, what's "odd" is the tu quoque style arguments that come up any time even the mildest criticism of China comes up. As if any other country being bad excuses China's bad behavior, or is reason to not point out China's bad behavior.
- throw51319 6y agoThey are just the latest and largest ever example of this age old strategy being deployed again. Classic nationalistic power grab.
- zwaps 6y agoChina asserts its power to the detriment of neighboring countries in almost every aspect of life. Their disregard for others and for the environment is staggering and on a staggering scale. There are very few countries who can even come close to that - probably only the US qualifies. Even then, China has twice the CO2 emissions than the US, more than three times the emissions of the entire EU, and more than a magnitude more CO2 emissions than coal dependent countries like Germany. Furthermore, China's CO2 emissions are also higher than any other country in history. China fishes illegally and under false flags all over the world, using a government sponsored fishing fleet. This is all because the CCP needs to ensure progress in welfare which would be threatened by shortages in meat or fish. Otherwise, the Chinese citizens would perhaps not continue to accept the repressive regime. But do we smaller countries accept these transgressions? Fishing the territorial waters of smaller states empty should be considered an act of war - which it would be if it weren't for China's relative power distance compared to local neighbors. All of this is frankly unacceptable and needs to be called out. Small countries need to band together and present China with a strong opposition. This should and can not depend on the US. We need to learn from history. The increasing imperialism by the CCP should be a warning!
- vansul 6y agoOverfishing aside I believe cephalopods (such as squid) are expected to thrive relative to other marine creatures - they seem to be well poised to adapt in response to rising ocean acidification/CO2 and decreasing fish stocks https://phys.org/news/2019-06-squid-climate.html https://phys.org/news/2019-06-squid-climate.html https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/23/octopuses-squid-cuttlefish-warming-oceans-climate-change https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/23/octopuse...
- mymythisisthis 6y agoIn the year 1289, King Philip IV of France was worried about fish. “Each and every watershed of our realm,” he proclaimed, “large and small, yields nothing due to the evil of fishers.” https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/05/medieval-people-were-already-ruining-fish/589837/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/05/medieval... I've already witnessed the collapse of fishing in the oceans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_northwest_cod_fishery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_north...
- atomi 6y agoI'm so bearish on humanity. A future like The Expanse is starting to look optimistic.
- blaser-waffle 6y agoHumanity isn't the problem, just the number of humans. Historically we had wars and famines and disease to take care of that. Neo-COVID will reduce those numbers. Or else we learn to manage resource or something.
- readarticle 6y agoAnd you’re currently witnessing the recovery of the Atlantic northwest cod fishery to historical, sustainable levels by 2030.
- bamboozled 6y agoIs the world just going to have to let China own itself to learn the hard way? Like, it just seems like a bad news generator and we constantly need to dance around the CCP trying to guide them appropriately with sanctions, and threats and incentives. I understand depleting the oceans would be catastrophic, but how is this regime ever going to learn? Honest question?
- metalliqaz 6y agoThis question has been answered many times in the past. Through most of human history, it would have involved killing 80% of their young men and taking the women as slaves. I don't know where it will lead in the age of nuclear weapons.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- ephemeralism 6y agoAh yes, the age old question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden
- dirtyid 6y ago> bad news generator Well someone has to choose what bad news to highlight and how biased to highlight said news. For example, per capita, Taiwan and S.Korea have larger DWF fleets, Taiwan significantly so. Factor in EEZ and you get a good idea of why. China: 1400m ppl / 3000 dwf fleet / 900,000km2 eez (3.8m with disputes) Taiwan: 24m / 414 / 90,000km2 Japan: 162m / 162 / 4,500,000km2 S.Korea: 52m / 198 / 300,00km2 Spain: 47m / 65 / 1,000,000km2 https://www.stimson.org/wp-content/files/file-attachments/Stimson%20Distant%20Water%20Fishing%20Report.pdf https://www.stimson.org/wp-content/files/file-attachments/St... This EEZ map really explains a lot of tensions in these maritime disputes. https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7292/10134658063_fca4fc3da2_o.jpg https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7292/10134658063_fca4fc3da2_o...
- 6y ago
- knolax 6y agoDisappointed in the article. When I saw the Yale domain I thought it would be a research paper or at least something written by an expert on the subject. It appears this is written by a journalist[0] and as typical of things written hy journalists, leaves out crucial details/sources which leaves you with more questions. > the country’s commercial fishermen often serve as de-facto paramilitary personnel whose activities the Chinese government can frame as private actions. ???? The article doesn't go any further, but how would you use a bunch of unarmed fishing vessels crewed by "illiterates" (according to the article) for anything resembling a military purpose. Later on it mentions "crowding" but doesn't really go into detail about what that means. Plus what is a "distant water fishing fleet"? The article gives numbers for overall number of fishing vessels and then "distant water fishing fleet", but only provides context for the later number by saying the US has only 300 such boats in its fleet. If a country with coasts on two oceans only has 300 of these, it has to be some really specific category of boat right? What makes this category important? And of course there's the framing of the article, the fishing is done by private commercial fishers but apparently their entire country is to blame. I mean you can make some arguments about subsidies but then the article itself acknowledges that other countries also engage in similar level of subsidies. Also there's this weird fixation on North Korea, where it claims the Chinese fishing fleet is depleting North Korean waters, but doesn't really tell us about whether or not that's done with North Korea's permission. It mentions that it would be technically illegal for NK to sell fishing rights, but that doesn't really bear any significance. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Urbina https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Urbina
- sradman 6y agoFrom the linked Ian Urbina Wikipedia page: > As a journalist, his investigations typically focus on worker safety and the environment... As you point out, Urbina has an undeniable preference for international law, regulation, and treaties pertaining to oceans and fisheries. These sentiments seem to align with the values promoted by the Yale School of the Environment [1]. The article links to an investigative report Urbina did for NBC [2] which describes the evidence. [1] https://environment.yale.edu/ https://environment.yale.edu/ [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/specials/china-illegal-fishing-fleet/index.html https://www.nbcnews.com/specials/china-illegal-fishing-fleet...
- apta 6y agohttps://old.reddit.com/r/avoidchineseproducts/ https://old.reddit.com/r/avoidchineseproducts/
- freeopinion 6y agoBeing completely ignorant of the fishing industry, these numbers of vessels seem crazy high. I had no idea. Let's say the Chinese have 15-20,000. What percentage is that of the entire industry? Are there 100,000 distant-water vessels active in the world? Or only 25,000 total? If the Chinese represent 20% of the world industry, but are trying to feed 18% of the world's population, that doesn't seem outrageous. But if they represent 50% of the world industry, then my eyebrows go up. At the same time, if the US represents 10% of the industry and 4% of world population, or if UK represents 3% of the industry but <1% of world population, doesn't that make it a bit hard to swallow? Almost all of the numbers above are made up. I don't know what they really are. That's my point. I'm reluctant to grab my pitchfork with my current level of ignorance.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- MagnumOpus 6y ago> Let's say the Chinese have 15-20,000. What percentage is that of the entire industry For comparison, the 2nd/3rd/4th largest distant-water fleets are Taiwan at around 400 and Japan and S. Korea at around 150-200 [0]. Probably the entire rest of the world accounts for less than 10% of foreign fishing. [0] https://www.stimson.org/wp-content/files/file-attachments/Stimson%20Distant%20Water%20Fishing%20Report.pdf https://www.stimson.org/wp-content/files/file-attachments/St...
- aitchnyu 6y agoAre there plans for an international fishing and plastic disposal sanctions? Citizens can justly complain a faraway country is turning their fish rarer and more poisnous.
- skido8 6y agoDead chinese = good chinese