6 ms·

Open comment from an Australian to google: "Pay your f#$king tax like the rest of us or shut the f%$ck up." This comment stands apart from any and all implica

by harry8 6y ago

Open comment from an Australian to google: "Pay your f#$king tax like the rest of us or shut the f%$ck up." This comment stands apart from any and all implications of their special interest policy pleadings above which are all pretty tedious in comparison. Google don't pay tax for profit made selling in Australia. To hell with them and literally any case they have to make.

nl 6y ago
Be that as it may, News Corp doesn't pay tax in Australia either, and I don't see why Google should have to pay what is effectively a tax to them! Make them pay tax by all means, but why should it go straight to news corp?
knorker 6y ago
To hell with "them"? Are you saying Australians should cut off their nose to spite their face? I think you missed the whole point of this letter. Let me clarify: "Oi mate, the government wants to force us to fuck you royally. We don't want to. Please help stop yourself getting fucked. Cheers, cunt."
- chris_wot 6y ago
  And here is another Australian who says "Oi mate, Google don't want to pay taxes for profits they made in Australia. They don't want to invest in schools, universities, infrastructure or anything else through reasonable taxation. Google are fucking over Australians".
  - knorker 6y ago
    But it's orthogonal. It's like you're saying you want to be fucked by both Google and the government. Why do two wrongs make a right, to you? Again: cutting off your nose to spite your face.
    - shard972 6y ago
      Why would it be a net loss to australia or any other nation if they instead just developed search engines locally? Is search really so impossible that only in America can they can possibly get enough talent to do web search? At a time when Australia is wanting to expand it's technology sector, seems like a simple solution if google just leaves and it's replaced by an local company that is willing to pay its fair share.
    - chris_wot 6y ago
      No, I want Google to pay taxes for profit they earned in Australia.
      - knorker 6y ago
        Or-tho-go-nal. Cutting off your nose to spite your face does not stop your face from doing whatever it did to make you spite it. Non sequitur. Orthogonal. Unrelated. Irrelevant. You can be against google fucking you and the Australian government fucking you. These are not mutually exclusive.
  - nojvek 6y ago
    Google is a for profit entity which is legally bound to optimize value for shareholders. Therefore they will follow whatever taxation laws there are. Same with Amazon, MSFT, Apple etc. Change the tax laws. Google isn’t doing anything wrong (morally yes, legally no). It’s how public corporations work.
- harry8 6y ago
  I think you missed the /whole/ point of the comment. You are starting from the premise that google care about australians. This is a demonstrably false assumption. They don't pay their tax. They would destroy australians in a heartbeat for more money. It's not opinion, they've shown that themseleves. That is just a sad fact. Now re-read your comment and tell me if there is any good reason anyone should care about what google says when they claim to be on the side of "australians" when we know they are not. No framing, nor spin from the PR agency here changes that. Google "on the side of small players" is just vomit-making. They never have been anything other than brutal to small players in any action they have taken in business in any single way. Really. Google take everything they can, whenever they can, however they can. Ask small players who has had business squashed. Want to sell apps in the android store who have their REVENUE taxed by google while google don't pay their tax to the government. Then if you manage to make profit after paying a revenue tax to google you find you just did google's market research for them. That's one example, there are plenty. Google are foul. This open letter foul. Even if you agree with any points the PR agency is useing to try and influence you it still foul. The policy discussion about what constitutes good policy for Australia comes after we acknowledge how awful google are. And after we have agreed to place the intrerests of Google precisely last after every single Australian who pays their tax. "NO representation without taxation!"
  - knorker 6y ago
    > You are starting from the premise that google care about australians I'm absolutely not. Complete misunderstanding of everything I'm saying. "Hey that guy is about to stab you!" -"fuck you you're a .. aaaaaargh I'm being stabbed!" > They would destroy australians in a heartbeat for more money. It's not opinion, they've shown that themseleves. That is just a sad fact. Also 100% irrelevant. > Now re-read your comment and tell me if there is any good reason anyone should care about what google says Only if they are right. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. A fact (if indeed it is) said by the stupidest evilest entity, is true even if they said it. Feynman has a great bit about that. No matter who says it, if it's right it's right, if it's wrong it's wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. But go ahead, be fucked by both google and the gov, if you prefer being doubly fucked. The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
enneff 6y ago
As a fellow Australian, we must compel our government to change the laws so that the many large corporations that operate in this country, not just Google, pay an appropriate amount of tax.
eru 6y ago
Google complies with all the relevant laws. If Australians want Google to pay more taxes, they should change the tax laws to make them pay more taxes.
- DanBC 6y ago
  Tax law is what's written in acts and statutes, but also what's developed in case law. Google's lawyers will claim that Google is compliant with tax law, but until these complex tax avoidance schemes go through the courts we won't know. Most tax authorities use courts as a measure of last resort, and will prefer to add clarifications to the law and negotiate settlements with avoiding companies rather than spending millions on legal fees for court cases. Some companies see a regulation and say "that's the bare knuckle minimum expected behaviour that we cannot go below". Other companies see a regulation and say "how far beyond that can we go before we get fined?"
- paulnechifor 6y ago
  Is this what Google is complaining about, changing laws?
  - bryan_w 6y ago
    If this law was a tax, you would be correct, but this is a law to force Google to pay news corp
  - eru 6y ago
    In some sense, yes.
- ohgodplsno 6y ago
  "Multinational makes money dance through 13 countries to pretend that Google Ireland is an absolutely different entity to Google Australia". Google can legitimately fuck off. The amount of money they have stolen from states throughout the world is measured in billions. And some people have the gall to come and say "bUt It'S lEgAL!1".
  - 6y ago
stephen_g 6y ago
We definitely do need to close up loopholes that multinationals use to avoid paying tax here (and really, everybody should have a look at Michael West’s Top 40 Tax Dodgers [1] - apparently Google avoids being on the list by directly booking a fair bit of their Australian profit offshore, but wouldn’t be that high compared to the likes of Chevron, Exxon and others). But we need to keep in mind that this proposed bill has been pushed for pretty much solely by a single American company that controls 70% of our media and also doesn’t pay tax! In this case, I’d prefer Google wins - tax reform can come after. Or we could use it as a compromise - “OK, we’ll drop the News Corp Subsidy Bill, but in return you stop the tax avoidance” 1. https://www.michaelwest.com.au/australias-top-40-tax-dodgers-2020-fossil-fuels-dominate-once-more/ https://www.michaelwest.com.au/australias-top-40-tax-dodgers...
MertsA 6y ago
I agree multinational corporation taxation is sorely in need of updating but this isn't taxing Google. This is just robbing Google and giving the proceeds to News Corp. The Australian people don't get anything from this, it's literally just taking money from one multinational and giving it to another. What would be hilarious is if Google just delisted News Corp in the US and UK and charged them a premium for adwords to offset the theft in the Australian market.
runeks 6y ago
> Google don't pay tax for profit made selling in Australia. And why should they if they don’t operate in Australia? If I, as a European, sell something to an Australian from which I profit, should I be paying an Australian tax on this sale?
- brod 6y ago
  What if you as a European (company) employ 1000 Australians in Australia and have Australia specific resources (including sales) in Australia and use those Australian resources exclusively for Australia.. are you still not operating in Australia?
- brod 6y ago
  Completely forgot in the other comment but your product would be subject to GST, which is a tax. I can't imagine Google paying GST %s on their Australian ad sales, but it's a starting point.
- cyphar 6y ago
  Actually, yes. If you have more than $75k in revenue per year, you are legally obligated to register for, charge, and pay GST[1] -- our equivalent of VAT -- and you have to register as an Australian business (though for most overseas companies the additional taxes are minimal). If you aren't GST registered then Aussies have to do pay for it during the customs process[2]. If I wanted to sell things to customers in the EU in large enough volume, I would probably have to do something similar. Paying taxes (or more generally, following the law) is simply something that businesses have to do if they wish to have access to a country's market -- you also have to follow our consumer laws and other relevant regulations (for instance, this is why Steam has to provide much more lenient return policies here -- we have very strong regulations on warranties and return policies and they were fined for non-compliance in the past). Not to mention that Google employs lots of people in Australia (Google Maps was first developed in the Sydney office), has a subsidiary incorporated in Australia, and sells many millions of dollars worth of products in Australia. They are no less of an Australian company than Woolworths. [1]: https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/GST/Registering-for-GST/ https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/GST/Registering-for-GST/ [2]: https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/GST/In-detail/Rules-for-specific-transactions/International-transactions/GST-and-imported-goods/ https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/GST/In-detail/Rules-for-spec...

by harry8 6y ago

nl 6y ago

Be that as it may, News Corp doesn't pay tax in Australia either, and I don't see why Google should have to pay what is effectively a tax to them! Make them pay tax by all means, but why should it go straight to news corp?

knorker 6y ago

To hell with "them"? Are you saying Australians should cut off their nose to spite their face? I think you missed the whole point of this letter. Let me clarify: "Oi mate, the government wants to force us to fuck you royally. We don't want to. Please help stop yourself getting fucked. Cheers, cunt."

chris_wot 6y ago
And here is another Australian who says "Oi mate, Google don't want to pay taxes for profits they made in Australia. They don't want to invest in schools, universities, infrastructure or anything else through reasonable taxation. Google are fucking over Australians".
- knorker 6y ago
  But it's orthogonal. It's like you're saying you want to be fucked by both Google and the government. Why do two wrongs make a right, to you? Again: cutting off your nose to spite your face.
  - shard972 6y ago
    Why would it be a net loss to australia or any other nation if they instead just developed search engines locally? Is search really so impossible that only in America can they can possibly get enough talent to do web search? At a time when Australia is wanting to expand it's technology sector, seems like a simple solution if google just leaves and it's replaced by an local company that is willing to pay its fair share.
  - chris_wot 6y ago
    No, I want Google to pay taxes for profit they earned in Australia.
    - knorker 6y ago
      Or-tho-go-nal. Cutting off your nose to spite your face does not stop your face from doing whatever it did to make you spite it. Non sequitur. Orthogonal. Unrelated. Irrelevant. You can be against google fucking you and the Australian government fucking you. These are not mutually exclusive.
- nojvek 6y ago
  Google is a for profit entity which is legally bound to optimize value for shareholders. Therefore they will follow whatever taxation laws there are. Same with Amazon, MSFT, Apple etc. Change the tax laws. Google isn’t doing anything wrong (morally yes, legally no). It’s how public corporations work.
harry8 6y ago
I think you missed the /whole/ point of the comment. You are starting from the premise that google care about australians. This is a demonstrably false assumption. They don't pay their tax. They would destroy australians in a heartbeat for more money. It's not opinion, they've shown that themseleves. That is just a sad fact. Now re-read your comment and tell me if there is any good reason anyone should care about what google says when they claim to be on the side of "australians" when we know they are not. No framing, nor spin from the PR agency here changes that. Google "on the side of small players" is just vomit-making. They never have been anything other than brutal to small players in any action they have taken in business in any single way. Really. Google take everything they can, whenever they can, however they can. Ask small players who has had business squashed. Want to sell apps in the android store who have their REVENUE taxed by google while google don't pay their tax to the government. Then if you manage to make profit after paying a revenue tax to google you find you just did google's market research for them. That's one example, there are plenty. Google are foul. This open letter foul. Even if you agree with any points the PR agency is useing to try and influence you it still foul. The policy discussion about what constitutes good policy for Australia comes after we acknowledge how awful google are. And after we have agreed to place the intrerests of Google precisely last after every single Australian who pays their tax. "NO representation without taxation!"
- knorker 6y ago
  > You are starting from the premise that google care about australians I'm absolutely not. Complete misunderstanding of everything I'm saying. "Hey that guy is about to stab you!" -"fuck you you're a .. aaaaaargh I'm being stabbed!" > They would destroy australians in a heartbeat for more money. It's not opinion, they've shown that themseleves. That is just a sad fact. Also 100% irrelevant. > Now re-read your comment and tell me if there is any good reason anyone should care about what google says Only if they are right. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. A fact (if indeed it is) said by the stupidest evilest entity, is true even if they said it. Feynman has a great bit about that. No matter who says it, if it's right it's right, if it's wrong it's wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. But go ahead, be fucked by both google and the gov, if you prefer being doubly fucked. The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

enneff 6y ago

As a fellow Australian, we must compel our government to change the laws so that the many large corporations that operate in this country, not just Google, pay an appropriate amount of tax.

eru 6y ago

Google complies with all the relevant laws. If Australians want Google to pay more taxes, they should change the tax laws to make them pay more taxes.

DanBC 6y ago
Tax law is what's written in acts and statutes, but also what's developed in case law. Google's lawyers will claim that Google is compliant with tax law, but until these complex tax avoidance schemes go through the courts we won't know. Most tax authorities use courts as a measure of last resort, and will prefer to add clarifications to the law and negotiate settlements with avoiding companies rather than spending millions on legal fees for court cases. Some companies see a regulation and say "that's the bare knuckle minimum expected behaviour that we cannot go below". Other companies see a regulation and say "how far beyond that can we go before we get fined?"
paulnechifor 6y ago
Is this what Google is complaining about, changing laws?
- bryan_w 6y ago
  If this law was a tax, you would be correct, but this is a law to force Google to pay news corp
- eru 6y ago
  In some sense, yes.
ohgodplsno 6y ago
"Multinational makes money dance through 13 countries to pretend that Google Ireland is an absolutely different entity to Google Australia". Google can legitimately fuck off. The amount of money they have stolen from states throughout the world is measured in billions. And some people have the gall to come and say "bUt It'S lEgAL!1".
- 6y ago

stephen_g 6y ago

We definitely do need to close up loopholes that multinationals use to avoid paying tax here (and really, everybody should have a look at Michael West’s Top 40 Tax Dodgers [1] - apparently Google avoids being on the list by directly booking a fair bit of their Australian profit offshore, but wouldn’t be that high compared to the likes of Chevron, Exxon and others). But we need to keep in mind that this proposed bill has been pushed for pretty much solely by a single American company that controls 70% of our media and also doesn’t pay tax! In this case, I’d prefer Google wins - tax reform can come after. Or we could use it as a compromise - “OK, we’ll drop the News Corp Subsidy Bill, but in return you stop the tax avoidance” 1. https://www.michaelwest.com.au/australias-top-40-tax-dodgers-2020-fossil-fuels-dominate-once-more/ https://www.michaelwest.com.au/australias-top-40-tax-dodgers...

MertsA 6y ago

I agree multinational corporation taxation is sorely in need of updating but this isn't taxing Google. This is just robbing Google and giving the proceeds to News Corp. The Australian people don't get anything from this, it's literally just taking money from one multinational and giving it to another. What would be hilarious is if Google just delisted News Corp in the US and UK and charged them a premium for adwords to offset the theft in the Australian market.

runeks 6y ago

> Google don't pay tax for profit made selling in Australia. And why should they if they don’t operate in Australia? If I, as a European, sell something to an Australian from which I profit, should I be paying an Australian tax on this sale?

brod 6y ago
What if you as a European (company) employ 1000 Australians in Australia and have Australia specific resources (including sales) in Australia and use those Australian resources exclusively for Australia.. are you still not operating in Australia?
brod 6y ago
Completely forgot in the other comment but your product would be subject to GST, which is a tax. I can't imagine Google paying GST %s on their Australian ad sales, but it's a starting point.
cyphar 6y ago
Actually, yes. If you have more than $75k in revenue per year, you are legally obligated to register for, charge, and pay GST[1] -- our equivalent of VAT -- and you have to register as an Australian business (though for most overseas companies the additional taxes are minimal). If you aren't GST registered then Aussies have to do pay for it during the customs process[2]. If I wanted to sell things to customers in the EU in large enough volume, I would probably have to do something similar. Paying taxes (or more generally, following the law) is simply something that businesses have to do if they wish to have access to a country's market -- you also have to follow our consumer laws and other relevant regulations (for instance, this is why Steam has to provide much more lenient return policies here -- we have very strong regulations on warranties and return policies and they were fined for non-compliance in the past). Not to mention that Google employs lots of people in Australia (Google Maps was first developed in the Sydney office), has a subsidiary incorporated in Australia, and sells many millions of dollars worth of products in Australia. They are no less of an Australian company than Woolworths. [1]: https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/GST/Registering-for-GST/ https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/GST/Registering-for-GST/ [2]: https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/GST/In-detail/Rules-for-specific-transactions/International-transactions/GST-and-imported-goods/ https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/GST/In-detail/Rules-for-spec...