16 ms·
Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its cameras, mic, data, BT, Wi-Fi
- m0zg 6y agoToo bad the battery "kill switch" seems to be turned on permanently. I don't blame them - it's a hard problem to solve. Todays higher end phones go as far as to turn off parts of the chips on the fly, dynamically, on demand. But until it is solved, the device is more or less a curiosity rather than something useful in practice.
- fsflover 6y agoWhy do you need it? You can simply remove the battery (without any tools).
- lilSebastian 6y agoYou have to remove the back cover to access the dip kill switches, at which point you could just life the battery out
- prox 6y agoIs anyone usimg a linux phone? Love to hear use cases. I know about the PinePhone and the Librem, don’t know if there are others.
- fsflover 6y agoThere are a lot of videos on Youtube, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH3RbrwhNd8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH3RbrwhNd8
- blihp 6y agoI've got a Pinephone (the UBports CE, though I'm mainly running Mobian right now) Short term, the use cases are as hacker mobile Linux devices with most of the mobile hardware working (device drivers are still a WIP, Linux text/server software works flawlessly, GUI software is hit-or-miss right now) Long term, I'm expecting them to be perfectly serviceable basic mobile handsets. But they are still a ways off from being 'daily driver ready' (i.e. power management isn't in the same league as other mobile devices and quite a bit of flaky/missing functionality) Another area still needing work is that there are only a handful of desktop apps that have been reworked to have a scalable UI for mobile. Generally things are still sluggish and battery life is not great yet, which is to be expected since no mobile devices really existed out in the wild for raw Linux until very recently. Now that they do exist, things are improving rapidly. For example: a month ago battery life was atrocious. Today it's merely bad (compared to what you're used to on iOS/Android) So what does this feel like in terms of real world usage? 1) Want to use it to place/receive phone calls/text messages... it will work, to a degree... some/most (depending on distro) of the time. 2) Want to run a web server or open a terminal and ssh over to a server... pretty flawless. 3) Want to run a GUI app designed for or adapted to mobile... the list is growing weekly, if not daily. 4) Want to run a GUI app designed for desktops (i.e. no work has been done to adapt for mobile)... prepare to be disappointed, if you can use it at all. 5) Want to run your favorite iOS app? No. 6) Want to run your favorite Android app? If it's open source, probably will be possible soon-ish. Proprietary apps? Probably not if they rely on proprietary Android/Google services.
- tpxl 6y agoHow is the battery life? On UBPorts a few weeks ago I got about 8 hours standby, which truly is atrocious. I would probably switch to it being my daily driver if I can get 3 days standby on a distro.
- damip 6y agoWhat are the killswitches acting on ? Are they acting only on the dedicated "enable" or "poweroff" inputs of various chips ? Are they cutting the power supply of the chips ? Are they cutting both the power and logic busses, thus isolating the target chips (at least electrically) ?
- hawski 6y agoFrom https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone_FAQ#What_are_the_kill_switches_doing.3F https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone_FAQ#What_are_the... 1 Modem | Pulls Q1501 gate up (FET killing modem power) | "On" enables 2G/3G/4G communication and GNSS hardware, "off" disables it. 2 WiFi / Bluetooth | Pulls up CHIP_EN | "On" enables WiFi and Bluetooth communication hardware, "off" disables it. 3 Microphone | Breaks microphone bias voltage from the SoC | "On" enables audio input from on-board microphones (not 3.5mm jack), "off" disables it. 4 Rear camera | Pulls up PWDN on OV5640 | "On" enables the rear camera, "off" disables it. 5 Front camera | Pulls up PWDN on GC2145 | "On" enables the front camera, "off" disables it. 6 Headphone | Pulls up IN2 on analog switch BCT4717ETB | "On" enables audio input and output via the 3.5mm audio jack, "off" switches the jack to hardware UART mode.
- KMag 6y agoWith the microphone bias floating, what prevents some digital signal processing form recovering faint and fuzzy audio? I'm sure the microphone loses at least several dB of gain with the bias floating, but isn't it much safer to either disconnect the bias and tie it to ground, or else pull up/down the the digital output of the ADC? I understand that with the bias floating, the microphone output will be a combination of radio and quantum thermal noise, but won't that noise still be slightly modulated by the microphone? Or is it that the noise being modulated will be below detectable by the ADC and the digital output will always be exactly 0?
- yetihehe 6y agoDepends on actual hardware implementation, but those microphones are REALLY good at picking up audio. I once fiddled with some microphone and wondered why it works so poorly (lots of "digital" noise, faint audio), maybe cable broke or smth. Turned ot, it was "disabled" with hardware switch on cable, yet still picked up enough sound to "somewhat work".
- fsflover 6y agoGNU/Linux Librem 5 phone not just has the kill switches, but they are easily accessible and therefore more useful: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/
- Y_Y 6y agoThe librem phone is $750 and the pinephone is $150.
- input_sh 6y agoAlso a crucial difference: You can get your hands on a Pine Phone, while Librem has yet to ship a phone.
- fsflover 6y agoThere are nevertheless reasons to consider Librem 5: https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-linux-phones/6827 https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-linux-p...
- kop316 6y ago??? They have shipped a number of phones? Or do you mean they haven't entered production?
- nabilhat 6y ago
- Cantbekhan 6y agoOff-topic but IMHO what is really needed these days is a privacy feature allowing all the UIDs to be changed freely by the user (without the need for rooting and firmware thinkering). Including randomized IMEIs and randomized Android ID (In addition to the already offered randomized MAC and Ad tracking ID changes). Especially IMEIs which are commonly used by many applications and law enforcement to track users (see Banking apps for instance that all require your phone permissions to read such IDs). Nor Librem nor Pinephone offer this functionality from what I know. And no, it's not (yet) illegal (but might be against some ToS) in many countries to change your IMEI including the US (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Mobile_Equipment_Identity#IMEI_and_the_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Mobile_Equipment...).
- fsflover 6y ago> to change your IMEI Not exactly the same, but in Librem 5 you can at least replace the whole modem.
- alphabetter 6y agoI don't have the reference, but I am pretty sure that in order to meet requirements for type-approval (e.g. FCC approval in the US) phones have to show they are resistant to IMEI modification.
- rootsudo 6y agoNot yet illegal, agreed. The old fashioned way was using QPST/QXDM to modify the ESN/IMEI of phones but that was questionable enough. This also includes bluetooth mac address too and other UID's in the baseband. :)
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- mschuster91 6y agoIn Germany it's punishable by law indirectly (https://tipps.computerbild.de/hardware/firmware/imei-nummer-aendern-ist-das-erlaubt-541755.html https://tipps.computerbild.de/hardware/firmware/imei-nummer-...), in UK it is a direct crime that may yield 5 years of jail time (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/31/notes?view=plain https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/31/notes?view=plai...). Be fucking careful when you are traveling with a phone that has an IMEI in the software that does not match the one on the sticker.
- supernova87a 6y agoIf you're this worried about leakage from signals, cameras, etc. what about the tradeoff of security where now you need to patch and monitor for any attacks on your device, now that you're off of any normal OEM's support? What's the risk of that being done poorly by you, versus having better control over these physical switches?
- renw0rp 6y agoThat's only assuming that OEMs and their employees are competent
- Erlich_Bachman 6y ago> any normal OEM's support? What "normal OEM support" (like which company, for example?) has been good at regularly releasing security patches and keeping on top of various vulnerabilities? Especially past the 1-2 years after the release date of the device? Especially if you consider those companies that without any real consent from you install dozens of their own adware and spyware on each update that you can't even remove (like you can't remove system apps in android, only "disable" them, to make the phone nag you all the time to re-enable them). Not having to rely on the joke of the "OEM support" from the big companies is the very reason to use these open phones.
- kec 6y agoApple’s average full support for iPhone is trending to around 4-5 years since launch. Several times they’ve issued critical security updates years after ending official support.
- Lammy 6y agoThank you for including the name of the phone in the HN title unlike the clickbaity original.
- 627467 6y agoSo, I like the accessibility of physical switches but how are they more trusting than software ones? Or light indicators such as Apple's green Dot? Already trusting Open Source requires non technical people to trust others who can read the code to vouch for it. Here, we would need to expect an electronics engineer to understand (from looking at a disassembled device) that the switch actually does what it says it does, right?
- ben-schaaf 6y agoWith software ones you still have to trust the hardware and firmware in addition to the software. With light indicators like Apple's you also need to trust the hardware - and since the designs aren't open it's more difficult to do so - but once verified that they work as advertised having kill switches is a much more active security function than an indicator light.
- autisticcurio 6y agoInternational standards can also be zero days. For example, the international standard for called ID, uses a dial up modem protocol which means the hardware has to have capabilities to read this data which means the hardware has dialup modem capabilities. So if you can compromise the firmware of the modem, a backdoor into a device is via the very telephone network you later rely on to communicate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caller_ID#Operation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caller_ID#Operation Chips fall into 3 categories, fused by manufacturer, fused by branding company, or not fused allowing future updates, like bios chips. Even if the chip is fused, a backdoor may still exist, in some cases standard behaviour can be the backdoor. With zero days appearing in hardware, software and standards, its very easy if you have the knowledge to get a persistent backdoor into a device beit a PinePhone, Librem 5 or Necunos to name just a couple. https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-linux-phones/6827 https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-linux-p... https://tuxphones.com/yet-another-librem-5-and-pinephone-linux-smartphone-comparison/ https://tuxphones.com/yet-another-librem-5-and-pinephone-lin... Its probably why people like Cobham, Thales and other openly public military manufacturers make their own kits for militaries around the world. https://www.cobham.com/ https://www.cobham.com/ https://www.thalesgroup.com/en https://www.thalesgroup.com/en I even think its possible to hack the communication systems of the new Lockheed Martin F35, because the manufacturers are walking a logical development path (their mistake), but I've yet to have a go at it, so cant say for sure yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C25CwNlVjA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C25CwNlVjA
- iRobbery 6y agoThere is no mentioning of NFC, not here, not there? I like NFC for payments and things?
- GekkePrutser 6y agoNot sure if it has NFC but I really doubt you're ever going to find a bank willing to do payments on a fully open phone.
- noisy_boy 6y agoI get the point of low cost phone to keep the price low. I also know that there is a group that, rightfully, enjoys hacking on low-powered hardware to push it to limits. However, I wonder if there is also an opportunity to also sell high spec hardware, maybe in limited quantity. These phones are not for the masses anyway and I'm sure there is a Linux enthusiasts segment with pockets deep enough to afford the hardware - they know what they are getting into. Atleast what works will work fast and the software will only improve as we move along - which means improved overall experience. Plus it helps with the project funding too.
- COGlory 6y agoWhen this has been brought up about the PinePhone, the answer I've heard is that high spec hardware suitable for the project doesn't exist.
- tpxl 6y agoThe problem with linux phones right now is not the price, but the usefulness/software. The UB Ports edition of the phone doesn't have a working camera, and the Mobian can only use one camera at a time, with a script to switch between them. In about a year when these issues are resolved I'm going to recommend them to everyone I know and probably buy them for my family. As far as high end goes, Librem 5 from Purism has better specs (still a lot worse than high end Androids/iPhones. That's open source firmware for you).
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y agoThis. I am fine with Pine hardware. On the surface it should be sufficient. Oddly, my experience with Ubuntu OS is just plain awful. It made me miss Android almost instantly. I genuinely expected more. The physical switches are nice, but you still need to have some decent functionality to make it a daily driver. Sadly, it is not there yet. Since we are talking about it, if someone can recommend good alternative to Ubuntu for my UBports edition, that would be awesome. I am slowly preparing to try other OSs on Pinephone, but since it is not super easy process ( and since you have full access, you can easily brick your phone ), I have thus far spent more time learning about it than just trying to jump on one of the other OSs.
- GekkePrutser 6y agoThis isn't actually 'news'. But Pinephone is ruling the roost where Purism dropped the ball, sadly. PS: I love both companies, it's just sad about Purism :)
- actionowl 6y agoIn January 2020, Pine Microsystems Inc. was dissolved [1] Anyone know if they just closed their US entity and now operate from another country or are they having financial difficulties? [1] https://businesssearch.sos.ca.gov/Document/RetrievePDF?Id=03928399-27737032 https://businesssearch.sos.ca.gov/Document/RetrievePDF?Id=03...
- syshum 6y agoFrom this Comment on Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/PINE64official/comments/g8dqx9/pine_microsystems_inc_in_california_is_dissolved/fonpafp/ https://www.reddit.com/r/PINE64official/comments/g8dqx9/pine... ------ The Pine Microsystems becomes Pine Store Limited. Two reasons on such move: 1. Increasing complexity of business compliance and reporting paperwork when operates in California. Since Pine Store primary business is not in California, no interest to keep continue to have such burden. 2. Avoid legal mafia similar to what happens to Gnome on Q4 last year. Unfortunately, there are a lot of such legal mafias operate in State. This move is not due to financial or politic reason. Pine Store Limited locates in Malaysia and Hong Kong. ------------- Given the state of relations with HK and the US now this may makes things more complex for them as well
- GekkePrutser 6y agon January 2020, Pine Microsystems Inc. was dissolved[7] while Pine Store Limited was incorporated on December 5, 2019 in Hong Kong[8] and store.pine64.org claims to operate under the laws of Malaysia and China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine64 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine64 So just an entity move to a more favourable country.
- dangus 6y agoThat’s cool, but hardware kill switches don’t help your privacy. Why? Because nobody is ever going to want to turn off that functionality. I don’t know anyone who turns off the software switches, why would they turn off hardware ones? A smartphone without a camera, mic, Bluetooth, cellular data, and WiFi is basically useless. What we need is a way to make these technologies more private while they’re in use. Also, the PinePhone is barely usable, and I say that as an owner. It’s a neat toy but it’s got a long way to go.
- unethical_ban 6y agoThat is a huge, and incorrect, assertion. If I could hard-off my mic, I would. I don't use it but once a day, maybe, while I use others frequently. I turn off location manually whenever I am not using an app that requires it. I leave bluetooth on because I use it frequently enough, but if it were an easy hardware switch, I could get in the habit of shutting it off.
- AshamedCaptain 6y ago> I turn off location manually whenever I am not using an app that requires it Which is almost equivalent to teather from a security point of view. Either you trust the system, in which case you can trust that you can deny location to the programs that according to you "don't require it"; or you don't trust the system, in which case it will just broadcast the position whenever you enable the killswitch to everyone who could be even remotely interested. And again when you enable it is usually when you are most likely going to leak something interesting. There is here some usefulness in terms of having "another layer", but academically this is really debatable.
- def_true_false 6y agoSwitches are simple and predictable. Permission systems have shit UX, and are not granular enough anyway. Furthermore, suppose you need different things to be permitted at different times, e.g. you need the battery to last longer for a few days... good luck changing all your permissions manually.
- aembleton 6y agoNo kill switch for GPS though.
- labawi 6y agoModems (LTE modules) often have GPS and that's where it's handled in almost all phones. AFAICT, the LTE switch disables GPS.
- NiceWayToDoIT 6y agoThis is great functionality. But on the other hand I already had Meizu MX4 Ubuntu based phone. Apart of bad network reception, main issue was lack of application support, literally I was struggling with simplest application. On positive note I could to development and bash very easy...
- stronglikedan 6y agoAll those fancy physical switches, and none simply for silent mode? My most-missed physical switch on Android devices.
- yellowapple 6y agoThese are all behind the back cover, and are (from what I understand) pretty tiny, so I wouldn't imagine 'em to be all that convenient for toggling silent mode. But yeah, my PinePhone's supposed to ship on the 25th and I expect I'll be missing that feature.
- panpanna 6y agoThat's why people love OnePlus.
- herogreen 6y agoThis button could easily be added by a third party protection case using the GPIO that is available on the pogopins at the back of the phone.
- Yc4win 6y agoI would love to buy one for the sake of security (especially the physical kill switches) but will wait until it is a little more usable.