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> But cities have enduring appeal - proximity to people and culture and things to do I think this is key right here. For the foreseeable future, those things w

> But cities have enduring appeal - proximity to people and culture and things to do I think this is key right here. For the foreseeable future, those things won't be any more available in an expensive city compared to an inexpensive rural area. So why buy a 1 bedroom for $2 million or rent one for $3500 a month if I can do the exact same amount of networking and see the exact same amount of museums while paying significantly less?

tjr225 6y ago
Culture and things to do include a lot more than just networking and museums. One example for instance is the vast amount of unique natural beauty surrounding the Bay Area. Even rural places that have that are also expensive- though admittedly not nearly as much so. This is generally reflected in salary though.
- fountainofage 6y ago
  Those activities are also restricted and limited during COVID - either explicitly via state and local ordinances or via social pressures to not spread the virus. Basically, the optimal solution right now is to not go anywhere or see anyone unless you absolutely have to. Which if all someone should be doing is sitting at home or getting groceries, they could do that for a lot less than SF prices.
  - tjr225 6y ago
    Hiking/cycling/camping can be crazy socially distant and probably one of the best things you can do for your own mental and physical health right now. A ride up Tam isn’t going to be any more or less dangerous than it was before. Outside of a few extremely popular spots it is not restricted in Washington, at least to my knowledge. If it is in the Bay/CA then it is news to me. In any case, that stuff will still be there when the pandemic is over. It won’t be anywhere east of the Rockies.
    - vecinu 6y ago
      Hiking in the Bay Area is extremely difficult right now. You have to wear a mask EVERYWHERE outside where you are near people. On trails with 90+F weather you have to put your mask on every 30 seconds with how many people there are, it's a mess. My mental health is not improving when there are a million people all trying to do outdoor activities in the limited space we have nearby.
      - gkop 6y ago
        Try a hiking loop in the Oakland hills parking at Redwood Bowl. The redwood canopy preserves a pleasant climate. It’s a popular spot but not bad like you’re describing. Yes you need to wear a mask much of the time, but you can get a comfortable mask that’s easy to flip on and off, it’s not a big deal.
      - chrisco255 6y ago
        I can't believe California is making people where masks outdoors.
        kleton 6y ago
        I think the order is for masks outdoors when distance cannot be maintained. So almost never outdoors.
        seanmcdirmid 6y ago
        That’s what I thought also, but there is a lot of pressure to wear a mask where I am if you even walk out the door.
        i_am_proteus 6y ago
        Only other people can apply pressure. If you're not near anyone, take the mask off. If someone is pressuring you to put on your mask, that person is probably close enough that you should have a mask on.
- ghaff 6y ago
  If nature's your priority though, you don't live in SF or SV proper. You live in the Santa Cruz mountains, Marin, or further north along the coast or in the mountains (or in the Sierras). Those aren't cheap either in many cases of course until you really get out of Bay Area commuting range.
  - tjr225 6y ago
    Yes I tried to call that out in my post. Even towns like Bend, Bellingham, etc(even somewhat places in Idaho and Montana by now) are by no means cheap and on top of that they don’t have a robust job market to justify the cost.
    - randycupertino 6y ago
      I wonder if the pandemic is going to decimate the housing markets even more in those remote mountain towns. I have two coworkers who just moved to Bozeman, MT to be closer to skiing and fishing. I would think places like Kalispell, Coeur d'Alene, Jackson Hole, Taos and Bend are all going to see a large influx of remote workers who like outdoor lifestyles.
      - tjr225 6y ago
        I would suspect yes the pressure will be greater in areas like that. It is one of the reasons I prefer bigger cities on the west coast though; more houses, more jobs, and just as much nature. I have worked 100% remotely for almost two years now and love it but now I live somewhere with a crappy job market. Yes I save money but I live in constant fear of having to take a 50% pay cut if I can’t find more remote work. I love working remotely and I think it’s a great idea but I don’t think people realize how much of a leash it is when you choose to work in SV but live in the middle of nowhere.
        ghaff 6y ago
        In my case, I live well outside of Boston with quite a bit of land and only a few houses around me. No, it's not a mountain town in the Rockies or Sierras but it means I can go into the city for an evening if I want to, have lots of potential employers within (somewhat) reasonable driving distance, and could even commute into Boston by train if I wanted to--though it wouldn't really be sustainable long-term on a daily basis.
- Nursie 6y ago
  > One example for instance is the vast amount of unique natural beauty surrounding the Bay Area. But that's not what you move to most cities for. SF may be exceptional in having that stuff as well, but for most cities, if you lock down the social/cultural aspects, then the natural beauty is elsewhere.
  - zepto 6y ago
    It’s a big reason why people move to the Bay Area over other cities.
  - tjr225 6y ago
    It might not be why you suspect people move to cities for; but I suspect people pay a premium to live in a city that also happens to be surrounded by beauty.
- ericmcer 6y ago
  It is actually harder to get to if you are in SF, getting in/out/through SF is the most difficult part of bay area travel. South SF/Marin if you want to be close to the coast, or east bay if you want to be closer to the Sierras.

tjr225 6y ago

Culture and things to do include a lot more than just networking and museums. One example for instance is the vast amount of unique natural beauty surrounding the Bay Area. Even rural places that have that are also expensive- though admittedly not nearly as much so. This is generally reflected in salary though.

fountainofage 6y ago
Those activities are also restricted and limited during COVID - either explicitly via state and local ordinances or via social pressures to not spread the virus. Basically, the optimal solution right now is to not go anywhere or see anyone unless you absolutely have to. Which if all someone should be doing is sitting at home or getting groceries, they could do that for a lot less than SF prices.
- tjr225 6y ago
  Hiking/cycling/camping can be crazy socially distant and probably one of the best things you can do for your own mental and physical health right now. A ride up Tam isn’t going to be any more or less dangerous than it was before. Outside of a few extremely popular spots it is not restricted in Washington, at least to my knowledge. If it is in the Bay/CA then it is news to me. In any case, that stuff will still be there when the pandemic is over. It won’t be anywhere east of the Rockies.
  - vecinu 6y ago
    Hiking in the Bay Area is extremely difficult right now. You have to wear a mask EVERYWHERE outside where you are near people. On trails with 90+F weather you have to put your mask on every 30 seconds with how many people there are, it's a mess. My mental health is not improving when there are a million people all trying to do outdoor activities in the limited space we have nearby.
    - gkop 6y ago
      Try a hiking loop in the Oakland hills parking at Redwood Bowl. The redwood canopy preserves a pleasant climate. It’s a popular spot but not bad like you’re describing. Yes you need to wear a mask much of the time, but you can get a comfortable mask that’s easy to flip on and off, it’s not a big deal.
    - chrisco255 6y ago
      I can't believe California is making people where masks outdoors.
      - kleton 6y ago
        I think the order is for masks outdoors when distance cannot be maintained. So almost never outdoors.
        seanmcdirmid 6y ago
        That’s what I thought also, but there is a lot of pressure to wear a mask where I am if you even walk out the door.
        i_am_proteus 6y ago
        Only other people can apply pressure. If you're not near anyone, take the mask off. If someone is pressuring you to put on your mask, that person is probably close enough that you should have a mask on.
ghaff 6y ago
If nature's your priority though, you don't live in SF or SV proper. You live in the Santa Cruz mountains, Marin, or further north along the coast or in the mountains (or in the Sierras). Those aren't cheap either in many cases of course until you really get out of Bay Area commuting range.
- tjr225 6y ago
  Yes I tried to call that out in my post. Even towns like Bend, Bellingham, etc(even somewhat places in Idaho and Montana by now) are by no means cheap and on top of that they don’t have a robust job market to justify the cost.
  - randycupertino 6y ago
    I wonder if the pandemic is going to decimate the housing markets even more in those remote mountain towns. I have two coworkers who just moved to Bozeman, MT to be closer to skiing and fishing. I would think places like Kalispell, Coeur d'Alene, Jackson Hole, Taos and Bend are all going to see a large influx of remote workers who like outdoor lifestyles.
    - tjr225 6y ago
      I would suspect yes the pressure will be greater in areas like that. It is one of the reasons I prefer bigger cities on the west coast though; more houses, more jobs, and just as much nature. I have worked 100% remotely for almost two years now and love it but now I live somewhere with a crappy job market. Yes I save money but I live in constant fear of having to take a 50% pay cut if I can’t find more remote work. I love working remotely and I think it’s a great idea but I don’t think people realize how much of a leash it is when you choose to work in SV but live in the middle of nowhere.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        In my case, I live well outside of Boston with quite a bit of land and only a few houses around me. No, it's not a mountain town in the Rockies or Sierras but it means I can go into the city for an evening if I want to, have lots of potential employers within (somewhat) reasonable driving distance, and could even commute into Boston by train if I wanted to--though it wouldn't really be sustainable long-term on a daily basis.
Nursie 6y ago
> One example for instance is the vast amount of unique natural beauty surrounding the Bay Area. But that's not what you move to most cities for. SF may be exceptional in having that stuff as well, but for most cities, if you lock down the social/cultural aspects, then the natural beauty is elsewhere.
- zepto 6y ago
  It’s a big reason why people move to the Bay Area over other cities.
- tjr225 6y ago
  It might not be why you suspect people move to cities for; but I suspect people pay a premium to live in a city that also happens to be surrounded by beauty.
ericmcer 6y ago
It is actually harder to get to if you are in SF, getting in/out/through SF is the most difficult part of bay area travel. South SF/Marin if you want to be close to the coast, or east bay if you want to be closer to the Sierras.