5 ms·

Ok, give the homeless homes and don't complain about homeless shelters in your upscale neighborhood. Reform police, there are major american cities with protest

Ok, give the homeless homes and don't complain about homeless shelters in your upscale neighborhood. Reform police, there are major american cities with protests and minimal violence. You complain about symptoms with no regard for the root cause.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
I guess I’m not sure who you’re telling this to. Most people don’t have the time or energy to lead city reforms on their own. Their choices are to stay or leave, and it seems an increasing number of people are picking leave.
- badrabbit 6y ago
  Well to do people who can afford to leave also complain about homeless shelters in their neighborhood. I wasn't suggesting leading a reform but attacking the root cause by changing your opinion and the opinions of others.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    There’s a homeless shelter 2 blocks away from me, and I’m perfectly fine with it. The residents are great people as far as I can tell; I smile and wave when I see them, and I don’t begrudge the occasional panhandler or guy mumbling to himself. I mention all that to be very clear about what I mean when I say, I wouldn’t agree to live near a San Francisco homeless shelter either. I just can’t tolerate people screaming at me all the time or scattering used needles on the sidewalk outside, and definitely couldn’t ask friends or family to tolerate it.
    - tiredyam 6y ago
      This needs to upvoted higher. My anecdotal experience living in SF near homeless shelters for years is that there is a stark contrast in the homeless population in SF compared to other major US cities. I don’t claim to know why, but my big take away is that there isn’t a one size fits all strategy to addressing homelessness as it varies from region to region.
      - gfodor 6y ago
        I concur, for whatever reason, SF seems to have a larger density of people who are homeless who are also (sadly) suffering from mental illness or drug addiction, which has led to SF being the only city where I regularly expect (and do) see violent interactions between the homeless and others.
BurningFrog 6y ago
No one can fix the root causes. But everyone can move to somewhere functional.
- badrabbit 6y ago
  These are not impossible problems. They are fixable and we need to agree on the root cause before we can talk about solutions.
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    There are reforms that would fix the problems. But they are politically impossible to enact. Moving to a city that already has a functioning society is something one person can do without permission. So people do.
    - coffeemug 6y ago
      What are examples of cities with functioning societies? My backup plan was NYC, but thanks to de Blasio that's now out.
      - BurningFrog 6y ago
        There are 53 US metropolitan areas with > 1M people. They all have something wrong with them, but only SF has it's unique set of problems. So everyone has to figure out what tradeoff works for them. To me the biggest flaw in SF is the institutionalized Nimby-ocracy and the resulting housing and homelessness crisis, which I think poisons most areas of society. Texas seems like it has that side of society figured out. It has other serious problems, I know.
        fragmede 6y ago
        Specific to the Nimby-ocracy issues of Texas though, many homes have HOAs, so I'm not convinced that Nimby-ism isn't worse in Texas, there's just more land to spread out over.
blisterpeanuts 6y ago
Unfortunately, giving the homeless homes doesn't work. For the economically disadvantaged, of course providing free or low cost housing is helpful and welcome. But for the majority, who have mental illness and/or substance abuse issues, a shelter or home often makes little difference. Witness for example the experiment in Manhattan to provide some homeless men with hotel rooms. They literally go downstairs to poop in the street, harass or attack passersby, and trash the hotel. There's not a one-size-fits-all solution to homelessness. What we really need is restoration of residential mental care facilities that were largely torn down in the 1970s in favor of mainstreaming the mentally ill. We also need some kind of analog to the old rooming house districts where men down on their luck could get a bed and a hot meal for a dollar or so. What we don't need is the status quo which is ripping apart the social fabric of our society.
- badrabbit 6y ago
  You're absolutley wrong, various studies have been done that prove not only does no strings attached housing reduce homelesness, it is cheaper than having shelters and other economic costs. Finland is already doing this: https://english.best/toeic/exercise/finlands-radical-solution-to-homelessness/ https://english.best/toeic/exercise/finlands-radical-solutio...
  - gridlockd 6y ago
    That study shows providing housing for free results only in a 35% reduction. Like the GP said, some people can be helped, others not so much.
    - badrabbit 6y ago
      And it's cheaper! 35% is a lot. That figure will likely be a lot higher given the lack of safetynets in the US already that result in homelessness.
  - blisterpeanuts 6y ago
    Well, I wasn't trying to argue against "no strings attached housing". Actually, there used to be a lot of low-cost/no-cost options including the aforementioned dirt-cheap rooming houses, mental care residential facilities (including voluntary and involuntary incarceration), and shelters run by nuns and the like. Note that some of this still exists today but not the same scale as before. I'm afraid also that Finland's socio-economic situation is rather different from that of the U.S. Up until quite recently, they have had a homogeneous culture, a much smaller population, and more social stability, versus the U.S. with its vast and highly diverse population and relative instability. I don't see how a Finnish solution would quite fit our situation, though we should of course study their methodology since they tend to have good ideas :)
gridlockd 6y ago
The root cause for a large part of homelessness is mental illness in combination with personal freedom. There is no solution. You can not force people into treatment. San Francisco just happens to attract more homeless for various reasons.
- badrabbit 6y ago
  See,people say that and I am sure some if it is mental illness but in my experience most are stuck. Too many catch 22's. You need a phone, a car, clean clothes, a shower,etc... Mental illness itself is exasperated by not having a home. No silver bullets, give them all a safe shelter while you work out other issues

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

I guess I’m not sure who you’re telling this to. Most people don’t have the time or energy to lead city reforms on their own. Their choices are to stay or leave, and it seems an increasing number of people are picking leave.

badrabbit 6y ago
Well to do people who can afford to leave also complain about homeless shelters in their neighborhood. I wasn't suggesting leading a reform but attacking the root cause by changing your opinion and the opinions of others.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  There’s a homeless shelter 2 blocks away from me, and I’m perfectly fine with it. The residents are great people as far as I can tell; I smile and wave when I see them, and I don’t begrudge the occasional panhandler or guy mumbling to himself. I mention all that to be very clear about what I mean when I say, I wouldn’t agree to live near a San Francisco homeless shelter either. I just can’t tolerate people screaming at me all the time or scattering used needles on the sidewalk outside, and definitely couldn’t ask friends or family to tolerate it.
  - tiredyam 6y ago
    This needs to upvoted higher. My anecdotal experience living in SF near homeless shelters for years is that there is a stark contrast in the homeless population in SF compared to other major US cities. I don’t claim to know why, but my big take away is that there isn’t a one size fits all strategy to addressing homelessness as it varies from region to region.
    - gfodor 6y ago
      I concur, for whatever reason, SF seems to have a larger density of people who are homeless who are also (sadly) suffering from mental illness or drug addiction, which has led to SF being the only city where I regularly expect (and do) see violent interactions between the homeless and others.

BurningFrog 6y ago

No one can fix the root causes. But everyone can move to somewhere functional.

badrabbit 6y ago
These are not impossible problems. They are fixable and we need to agree on the root cause before we can talk about solutions.
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  There are reforms that would fix the problems. But they are politically impossible to enact. Moving to a city that already has a functioning society is something one person can do without permission. So people do.
  - coffeemug 6y ago
    What are examples of cities with functioning societies? My backup plan was NYC, but thanks to de Blasio that's now out.
    - BurningFrog 6y ago
      There are 53 US metropolitan areas with > 1M people. They all have something wrong with them, but only SF has it's unique set of problems. So everyone has to figure out what tradeoff works for them. To me the biggest flaw in SF is the institutionalized Nimby-ocracy and the resulting housing and homelessness crisis, which I think poisons most areas of society. Texas seems like it has that side of society figured out. It has other serious problems, I know.
      - fragmede 6y ago
        Specific to the Nimby-ocracy issues of Texas though, many homes have HOAs, so I'm not convinced that Nimby-ism isn't worse in Texas, there's just more land to spread out over.

blisterpeanuts 6y ago

Unfortunately, giving the homeless homes doesn't work. For the economically disadvantaged, of course providing free or low cost housing is helpful and welcome. But for the majority, who have mental illness and/or substance abuse issues, a shelter or home often makes little difference. Witness for example the experiment in Manhattan to provide some homeless men with hotel rooms. They literally go downstairs to poop in the street, harass or attack passersby, and trash the hotel. There's not a one-size-fits-all solution to homelessness. What we really need is restoration of residential mental care facilities that were largely torn down in the 1970s in favor of mainstreaming the mentally ill. We also need some kind of analog to the old rooming house districts where men down on their luck could get a bed and a hot meal for a dollar or so. What we don't need is the status quo which is ripping apart the social fabric of our society.

badrabbit 6y ago
You're absolutley wrong, various studies have been done that prove not only does no strings attached housing reduce homelesness, it is cheaper than having shelters and other economic costs. Finland is already doing this: https://english.best/toeic/exercise/finlands-radical-solution-to-homelessness/ https://english.best/toeic/exercise/finlands-radical-solutio...
- gridlockd 6y ago
  That study shows providing housing for free results only in a 35% reduction. Like the GP said, some people can be helped, others not so much.
  - badrabbit 6y ago
    And it's cheaper! 35% is a lot. That figure will likely be a lot higher given the lack of safetynets in the US already that result in homelessness.
- blisterpeanuts 6y ago
  Well, I wasn't trying to argue against "no strings attached housing". Actually, there used to be a lot of low-cost/no-cost options including the aforementioned dirt-cheap rooming houses, mental care residential facilities (including voluntary and involuntary incarceration), and shelters run by nuns and the like. Note that some of this still exists today but not the same scale as before. I'm afraid also that Finland's socio-economic situation is rather different from that of the U.S. Up until quite recently, they have had a homogeneous culture, a much smaller population, and more social stability, versus the U.S. with its vast and highly diverse population and relative instability. I don't see how a Finnish solution would quite fit our situation, though we should of course study their methodology since they tend to have good ideas :)

gridlockd 6y ago

The root cause for a large part of homelessness is mental illness in combination with personal freedom. There is no solution. You can not force people into treatment. San Francisco just happens to attract more homeless for various reasons.

badrabbit 6y ago
See,people say that and I am sure some if it is mental illness but in my experience most are stuck. Too many catch 22's. You need a phone, a car, clean clothes, a shower,etc... Mental illness itself is exasperated by not having a home. No silver bullets, give them all a safe shelter while you work out other issues