5 ms·

You could easily replace the word Blockchain in this patent application with the word database and it would all still make sense. Blockchains (I prefer to call

You could easily replace the word Blockchain in this patent application with the word database and it would all still make sense. Blockchains (I prefer to call them Merkle trees) were invented 40 years ago. The interesting part about cryptocurrency based Blockchains that makes them unforgeable is that they contain proof of work. The work to create an entire Blockchain is equal to the sum of the work contained in each node. Without proof of work Blockchains are easily forgeable.

DarthGhandi 6y ago
How do you prove the database hasn't been tampered with?
- barbegal 6y ago
  You can't but how can you prove the blockchain hasn't been tampered with?
  - flixic 6y ago
    Proof of Work, chain of blocks.
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    If you are asking, then you don't understand how the blockchain works. It's literally the entire point of the chain.
    - RunawayGalaxy 6y ago
      Prove that your blockchain hasn't been compromised by a sophisticated 51% attack.
      - RealityVoid 6y ago
        You can't. A 51% attack is literally "the network". And I wouldn't call a 51% attack sophisticated, really. It's just having a bigger hammer than the other guy.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Scarblac 6y ago
  Make it public and put it in version control, every time a vote is counted you publicise a new revision, everybody with an interest can download regularly and check for tampering?
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    This is a more complicated and less scalable way of creating a blockchain.
  - slau 6y ago
    Or, you know, use a hash of the previous row as a column value of the current row. That way, you can’t tamper with any data already stored in the database.
sebmellen 6y ago
I strongly disagree. This is a comment from someone who (I presume) is unaware of the advances in Proof-of-Stake blockchains, and other consensus protocols like the Stellar Consensus Protocol. Databases do not have a distributed way to manage consensus - one of the main things that sets a blockchain apart from a distributed database. This consensus mechanism is what's important when something important (like an election) hinges on the blockchain being an accurate representation of state. This requires a Byzantine-fault-tolerant agreement. See https://medium.com/loom-network/understanding-blockchain-fundamentals-part-1-byzantine-fault-tolerance-245f46fe8419 https://medium.com/loom-network/understanding-blockchain-fun....
- hwillis 6y ago
  ??? You absolutely do not want consensus anywhere near an election. Consensus is not about agreeing on the total balance of transactions, it's about agreeing on individual transactions. It implies that multiple people know what your vote was which is absolutely not what you want.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    This is not true if the voting apparatus is separate from the identity of the voter. There are two ways to accomplish this, and the USPS is proposing that they ship voters a sort of "private key", which is fully anonymous, which has no connection to their identity. This key is used once, with the right to cast one vote. In such a system, the whole blockchain will know what each public key voted for. The difference is that there is no connection between this public key and the vote of an individual. This would allow for a massively snd openly auditable system, without sacrificing privacy or convenience. I am not a proponent of this, as I think that in the near and mid-term futures, there are too many technical problems to be worked out. If, however, we end up giving every citizen digital ID cards as Estonia has done, and using those as secure hardware used for voting, we could distribute the voting process. Essentially, there would be no more vote-counting. There would only be vote casting and the election results would be apparent to everyone, immediately. Consensus is absolutely necessary for such a system.
cc23 6y ago
A database is a central point of failure. Nothing stopping a sysadmin or a hacker able to get shell access from just deleting a bunch of votes, or taking the whole system offline. A blockchain system over a p2p network is way more fault tolerant and available than a database. Also, in a blockchain system, any person can connect a node to the network and can see all of the votes that are occurring/have occurred, and can somewhat verify the results of the election.
- solarkraft 6y ago
  A blockchain is a database.

DarthGhandi 6y ago

How do you prove the database hasn't been tampered with?

barbegal 6y ago
You can't but how can you prove the blockchain hasn't been tampered with?
- flixic 6y ago
  Proof of Work, chain of blocks.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  If you are asking, then you don't understand how the blockchain works. It's literally the entire point of the chain.
  - RunawayGalaxy 6y ago
    Prove that your blockchain hasn't been compromised by a sophisticated 51% attack.
    - RealityVoid 6y ago
      You can't. A 51% attack is literally "the network". And I wouldn't call a 51% attack sophisticated, really. It's just having a bigger hammer than the other guy.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Scarblac 6y ago
Make it public and put it in version control, every time a vote is counted you publicise a new revision, everybody with an interest can download regularly and check for tampering?
- sebmellen 6y ago
  This is a more complicated and less scalable way of creating a blockchain.
- slau 6y ago
  Or, you know, use a hash of the previous row as a column value of the current row. That way, you can’t tamper with any data already stored in the database.

sebmellen 6y ago

I strongly disagree. This is a comment from someone who (I presume) is unaware of the advances in Proof-of-Stake blockchains, and other consensus protocols like the Stellar Consensus Protocol. Databases do not have a distributed way to manage consensus - one of the main things that sets a blockchain apart from a distributed database. This consensus mechanism is what's important when something important (like an election) hinges on the blockchain being an accurate representation of state. This requires a Byzantine-fault-tolerant agreement. See https://medium.com/loom-network/understanding-blockchain-fundamentals-part-1-byzantine-fault-tolerance-245f46fe8419 https://medium.com/loom-network/understanding-blockchain-fun....

hwillis 6y ago
??? You absolutely do not want consensus anywhere near an election. Consensus is not about agreeing on the total balance of transactions, it's about agreeing on individual transactions. It implies that multiple people know what your vote was which is absolutely not what you want.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  This is not true if the voting apparatus is separate from the identity of the voter. There are two ways to accomplish this, and the USPS is proposing that they ship voters a sort of "private key", which is fully anonymous, which has no connection to their identity. This key is used once, with the right to cast one vote. In such a system, the whole blockchain will know what each public key voted for. The difference is that there is no connection between this public key and the vote of an individual. This would allow for a massively snd openly auditable system, without sacrificing privacy or convenience. I am not a proponent of this, as I think that in the near and mid-term futures, there are too many technical problems to be worked out. If, however, we end up giving every citizen digital ID cards as Estonia has done, and using those as secure hardware used for voting, we could distribute the voting process. Essentially, there would be no more vote-counting. There would only be vote casting and the election results would be apparent to everyone, immediately. Consensus is absolutely necessary for such a system.

cc23 6y ago

A database is a central point of failure. Nothing stopping a sysadmin or a hacker able to get shell access from just deleting a bunch of votes, or taking the whole system offline. A blockchain system over a p2p network is way more fault tolerant and available than a database. Also, in a blockchain system, any person can connect a node to the network and can see all of the votes that are occurring/have occurred, and can somewhat verify the results of the election.

solarkraft 6y ago
A blockchain is a database.