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Has Amazon systemically refuses refunds for people who try to return counterfeit goods? It definitely doesn’t care if you don’t even notice. But they do the re

Has Amazon systemically refuses refunds for people who try to return counterfeit goods? It definitely doesn’t care if you don’t even notice. But they do the returns if you ask. The former is what needs to change.

ashtonkem 6y ago
I actually had them refuse a return on a blatantly counterfeit set of coffee filters (they were 1/4 size and didn’t even fit the brand they were marked for). Given that it was about $12, I didn’t fight them about it.
cscurmudgeon 6y ago
Only within their refund period. I have had so many products break down after their return window. Most recent example: Expensive chargers which stopped work within a few months. The seller’s page was gone. Customer support was of no use. This seems to be a common pattern. Fly by night sellers whose pages disappear within a few days.
- x0x0 6y ago
  "duracell" cr2032s -- those little pancake batteries for your car keyfob -- that die within 4 months. Which is weird, because the duracells at my hardware store last like 5 years.
  - ping_pong 6y ago
    Yes, this exact same thing happened to me with cr2032s. Now I'm only buying from trusted retailers who own their inventory.
  - yomly 6y ago
    When you buy these fakes from Amazon are they sold by Amazon? Or are they 3P sellers? Or is the problem that FBA sellers are infecting legitimate "sold by Amazon" inventory?
    - myself248 6y ago
      If Amazon commingles the inventory from unknown supply chains, how can any of it be called "legitimate"?
      - yomly 6y ago
        Yeah - FBA is actually a really awful attack vector. I hope that they internally are able to track sub-ASIN level inventory, otherwise they have made a fantastic laundering platform.
        AnssiH 6y ago
        Yes, they are able to track original sources (by never putting commingled units in the same bin), per seller help pages (and e.g. Amazon comments in this article: https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/04/03/1554287401000/Amazon--sub-prime---Part-II/ https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/04/03/1554287401000/Amazon-...).
        yomly 6y ago
        Yeah fair. There will be all kinds of audits which would be hard if they couldn't do that
    - nkrisc 6y ago
      If you bought it on Amazon.com and your credit card was charged by Amazon.com, you bought it from Amazon. Consumers shouldn't be concerned with what supplier Amazon gets their inventory from.
      - yomly 6y ago
        Sure - but that doesn't answer my question: was the product - 3P - Sold by Amazon - Fulfilled by Amazon As a customer with agency, I have the ability to not buy things on the Amazon site that aren't sold by amazon. When FBA stock contaminates sold by amazon stock, I lose that agency. That is a problem for my own personal uses of the Amazon site. That some large portion of Amazon functions like a more industrial Ebay is for others to enjoy - YMMV.
  - bcrosby95 6y ago
    Yeah, I looked into buying batteries on Amazon. Prices seemed too good to be true. After reading some reviews, I confirmed that. But I would imagine if you got in early enough, there weren't any negative reviews. There's definitely something wonky with how they aggregate reviews. I see now Amazon has their own brand of battery. Presumably they don't have this problem. It's actually a pretty disgusting tactic: competitor brands are untrustworthy because of how Amazon handles inventory rather than the actual quality of the product. I wonder what Amazon would do if you tried to sell your own Amazon batteries on their website.
    - kayfox 6y ago
      I buy _all_ of my coin cell batteries from Digikey. Yeah, it takes some foresight and planning sometimes, since they can only be shipped UPS ground, but they are cheap, come in bulk, and Digikey certifies that they are genuine.
- 7952 6y ago
  I had that happen and the agent advised me to do a chargeback!
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
    Then Amazon nukes your account.
    - the-dude 6y ago
      Which account is getting nuked? The buyers or the sellers?
      - Natanael_L 6y ago
        Depending on Amazon's mood that day, the answer might be "yes"
heavyset_go 6y ago
You can't even report that the reason for your return is that you suspect or know that the item you received is counterfeit during the return process. If Amazon cared about a problem this big, they would collect metrics from customers on it.
- furyg3 6y ago
  There may be other reasons (legal) to not want to collect these metrics...
  - leoc 6y ago
    Repeating myself: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19199343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19199343 > The classic "control fraud" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_fraud strategy is to incentivise your subordinates to maximise revenues while "neglecting" to check that they aren't engaging in fraud to do it. Then you can protest your innocence when the fraud comes to light.
    - amelius 6y ago
      Would control fraud work in a company as big as Amazon? If you're that big, then there's a huge probability of a whistleblower or unhappy ex-employee exposing you.
      - rodgerd 6y ago
        When Wells Fargo set incentives that were impossible to meet without defrauding customers, yes, they got caught. They fired thousands of tellers.
      - coffeefirst 6y ago
        Absolutely. The bigger you are the easier it is to claim plausible deniability for each of the "isolated" incidents. If the executives will even meet the people who they've put in this position, it's easier to lose or just never hear the complaints and red flags.
Alex3917 6y ago
> But they do the returns if you ask. Only if you notice within the return window. They wouldn't refund our purchase of The Wire box set (when DVDs were still a thing) unless we got it "authenticated" as being a counterfeit by HBO, and even then they were extremely difficult about it.
rasz 6y ago
return? you mean knowingly transport illegal goods across state and international borders? 18 U.S.C. § 2314 (1994)) (indicating that shipping counterfeit merchandise across state lines “may violate laws prohibiting the interstate transportation of stolen property”
- slavik81 6y ago
  Could you clarify? Looking at the rules here, none of them would seem to apply. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2314 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2314
  - rasz 6y ago
    Dont know, google found this as a possible interpretation. Courier services usually have this somewhere in ToS, plus customs will confiscate it and you end up on the hook.

ashtonkem 6y ago

I actually had them refuse a return on a blatantly counterfeit set of coffee filters (they were 1/4 size and didn’t even fit the brand they were marked for). Given that it was about $12, I didn’t fight them about it.

cscurmudgeon 6y ago

Only within their refund period. I have had so many products break down after their return window. Most recent example: Expensive chargers which stopped work within a few months. The seller’s page was gone. Customer support was of no use. This seems to be a common pattern. Fly by night sellers whose pages disappear within a few days.

x0x0 6y ago
"duracell" cr2032s -- those little pancake batteries for your car keyfob -- that die within 4 months. Which is weird, because the duracells at my hardware store last like 5 years.
- ping_pong 6y ago
  Yes, this exact same thing happened to me with cr2032s. Now I'm only buying from trusted retailers who own their inventory.
- yomly 6y ago
  When you buy these fakes from Amazon are they sold by Amazon? Or are they 3P sellers? Or is the problem that FBA sellers are infecting legitimate "sold by Amazon" inventory?
  - myself248 6y ago
    If Amazon commingles the inventory from unknown supply chains, how can any of it be called "legitimate"?
    - yomly 6y ago
      Yeah - FBA is actually a really awful attack vector. I hope that they internally are able to track sub-ASIN level inventory, otherwise they have made a fantastic laundering platform.
      - AnssiH 6y ago
        Yes, they are able to track original sources (by never putting commingled units in the same bin), per seller help pages (and e.g. Amazon comments in this article: https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/04/03/1554287401000/Amazon--sub-prime---Part-II/ https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/04/03/1554287401000/Amazon-...).
        yomly 6y ago
        Yeah fair. There will be all kinds of audits which would be hard if they couldn't do that
  - nkrisc 6y ago
    If you bought it on Amazon.com and your credit card was charged by Amazon.com, you bought it from Amazon. Consumers shouldn't be concerned with what supplier Amazon gets their inventory from.
    - yomly 6y ago
      Sure - but that doesn't answer my question: was the product - 3P - Sold by Amazon - Fulfilled by Amazon As a customer with agency, I have the ability to not buy things on the Amazon site that aren't sold by amazon. When FBA stock contaminates sold by amazon stock, I lose that agency. That is a problem for my own personal uses of the Amazon site. That some large portion of Amazon functions like a more industrial Ebay is for others to enjoy - YMMV.
- bcrosby95 6y ago
  Yeah, I looked into buying batteries on Amazon. Prices seemed too good to be true. After reading some reviews, I confirmed that. But I would imagine if you got in early enough, there weren't any negative reviews. There's definitely something wonky with how they aggregate reviews. I see now Amazon has their own brand of battery. Presumably they don't have this problem. It's actually a pretty disgusting tactic: competitor brands are untrustworthy because of how Amazon handles inventory rather than the actual quality of the product. I wonder what Amazon would do if you tried to sell your own Amazon batteries on their website.
  - kayfox 6y ago
    I buy _all_ of my coin cell batteries from Digikey. Yeah, it takes some foresight and planning sometimes, since they can only be shipped UPS ground, but they are cheap, come in bulk, and Digikey certifies that they are genuine.
7952 6y ago
I had that happen and the agent advised me to do a chargeback!
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
  Then Amazon nukes your account.
  - the-dude 6y ago
    Which account is getting nuked? The buyers or the sellers?
    - Natanael_L 6y ago
      Depending on Amazon's mood that day, the answer might be "yes"

heavyset_go 6y ago

You can't even report that the reason for your return is that you suspect or know that the item you received is counterfeit during the return process. If Amazon cared about a problem this big, they would collect metrics from customers on it.

furyg3 6y ago
There may be other reasons (legal) to not want to collect these metrics...
- leoc 6y ago
  Repeating myself: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19199343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19199343 > The classic "control fraud" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_fraud strategy is to incentivise your subordinates to maximise revenues while "neglecting" to check that they aren't engaging in fraud to do it. Then you can protest your innocence when the fraud comes to light.
  - amelius 6y ago
    Would control fraud work in a company as big as Amazon? If you're that big, then there's a huge probability of a whistleblower or unhappy ex-employee exposing you.
    - rodgerd 6y ago
      When Wells Fargo set incentives that were impossible to meet without defrauding customers, yes, they got caught. They fired thousands of tellers.
    - coffeefirst 6y ago
      Absolutely. The bigger you are the easier it is to claim plausible deniability for each of the "isolated" incidents. If the executives will even meet the people who they've put in this position, it's easier to lose or just never hear the complaints and red flags.

Alex3917 6y ago

> But they do the returns if you ask. Only if you notice within the return window. They wouldn't refund our purchase of The Wire box set (when DVDs were still a thing) unless we got it "authenticated" as being a counterfeit by HBO, and even then they were extremely difficult about it.

rasz 6y ago

return? you mean knowingly transport illegal goods across state and international borders? 18 U.S.C. § 2314 (1994)) (indicating that shipping counterfeit merchandise across state lines “may violate laws prohibiting the interstate transportation of stolen property”

slavik81 6y ago
Could you clarify? Looking at the rules here, none of them would seem to apply. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2314 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2314
- rasz 6y ago
  Dont know, google found this as a possible interpretation. Courier services usually have this somewhere in ToS, plus customs will confiscate it and you end up on the hook.