4 ms·

> Imagine you went into a retail store with a faulty product I understand where you are coming from, but there are lots of consignment stores and flea markets,

> Imagine you went into a retail store with a faulty product I understand where you are coming from, but there are lots of consignment stores and flea markets, at least in the middle parts of the US. The person you pay at the front counter simply records the transaction for the merchant. Amazon is a sort of cross between traditional retail and a consignment store, so it's not obvious (or "common sense") where product liability should lie.

wtallis 6y ago
Consignment stores and flea markets are for secondhand goods. Most of what is sold on Amazon is represented by Amazon as new rather than used.
- stickfigure 6y ago
  This is not correct. There are plenty of subdivided retail marketplaces (with a single cashier) that sell new products. There's one here where I live in Winters (just north of SF), and I found them frequently in the midwest when I lived there. Merchants rent small blocks of space from the establishment; what they put on the shelves is really up to them. Yes, this is commonly secondhand goods. But not always. The shop in Winters is all new products, more like a brick-and-mortar Etsy. It's a thing.
  - kadoban 6y ago
    That starts to be somewhat comparable, but still doesn't feel much like Amazon. Amazon isn't separate blocks of space, and merchants don't really rent their own areas. On a website that'd look like amazon.com/mycrapcompanystore/ or something. As a customer I just go to amazon and search for what I want. They choose what specific items I should see, in what order, and I am barely aware of who actually sent the item to Amazon. You have to look pretty closely to even tell. In many cases it's just not even possible to choose, with the way Amazon combines their stock.
    - crooked-v 6y ago
      Ebay is a good contrast here, as while it has the same general search-for-a-thing idea, it makes it very clear that you're buying this one specific item from this one specific merchant.
      - myself248 6y ago
        And I'd argue that's a far superior model. I go to eBay for a lot of items that I suspect may be graymarket but I'm willing to risk it, specifically BECAUSE I know exactly which seller sold me the thing, and I can go back on them if it's bad, and eBay has pretty good protections for buyers. I could buy the same goods on Amazon but have none of the traceability or protections.
        AkelaA 6y ago
        Plus Ebay incentives sellers to upload their own photos and written descriptions of the product they're selling, rather then having generic product pages for multiple listings. If I'm buying a second hand item like an old video game or something I always use Ebay since I can see what the product actually looks like and can make my own judgement on condition based on the photos. Something you can't really do on Amazon.
    - duskwuff 6y ago
      Technically there is a "storefront" page for each seller on Amazon, but it's not easy to get to and is awkward to navigate. Here's an example of one: https://www.amazon.com/s?me=A30QSGOJR8LMXA https://www.amazon.com/s?me=A30QSGOJR8LMXA Overall I'd agree, though -- Amazon has gone out of their way to take focus away from the individual merchants on their site and give customers the impression that they're buying items "from Amazon".
  - vkou 6y ago
    When I buy a widget from Amazon, I'm not actually getting a widget from some particular merchant on Amazon. I'm getting a widget that was pulled out of a co-mingled inventory box at some Amazon warehouse. Amazon owns the entire shopping experience, end-to-end. They run the website. They design the website. They handle payments. They advertise the items ("Customers who bought Foo also bought Bar"). They handle shipping. They handle refunds. They handle warehousing. But they don't seem to want to own the responsibility. I'm assuming that's because it's not the profitable part of this equation.
    - donatj 6y ago
      That’s not entirely true. Some sellers keep their stock in amazons warehouse but others, I believe most, drop ship their items themselves. Like 12 years ago I used to build stock/cart systems for said drop shippers.
      - lozaning 6y ago
        Anymore if you're not FBA you'll never get the buy box.
    - manigandham 6y ago
      No, you buy direct from Amazon or from 3rd-party sellers. These sellers can store and ship by themselves, or pay to have it stored and shipped by Amazon (this is called FBA - Fulfilled by Amazon) because it's faster and qualifies immediately for Prime which customers want. You can tell the difference when you buy, it's just not blatantly obviously unless the main Amazon listing is out of stock and you click on the "other sellers" link yourself. Go to your orders page and every product will tell you the "sold by" name.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - jacobush 6y ago
        It sounds like a judge must decide if it’s co-mingled or not, from the consumer’s perspective.
  - Stratoscope 6y ago
    You must be talking about Winters Collective? I didn't know about it before, so I tracked it down and it sounds like such a nice place! I used to drive up and down 505 all the time visiting family in Oregon. It's been a while, but a stop in Winters will be in store for my next trip. "a unique collection of vendors who work in partnership to market as a group and showcase the goods of several small businesses in one creative space." https://winterscollective.com/ https://winterscollective.com/
    - myself248 6y ago
      We have a thing like that in Michigan called Gibraltar Trade Center. At least, parts of GTC operate that way. There are also individual booths with individual cashiers. It's a great place to get a hepatitis tattoo, scam "6,000,000-watt" car stereo amplifier, or dubious candles that all smell like crayons plus whatever they claim to smell like. And these days, covid too.
      - stickfigure 6y ago
        Winters Collective is... not like that. It's a small storefront (maybe 1000 sq ft?) selling local handmade crafts. Etsy really is the best comparison. It's nice, but probably appeals mostly to tourists. Downtown Winters is a great stop if you're coming up/down the 505. It's cute. Main street is closed off to vehicles and set up with tables for open air dining and wine tasting. There are two wineries, two breweries, and remarkably good restaurants for a town pop 7,000.
ChuckMcM 6y ago
This is laid out in the judgement[1]. In California, if you are an integral part between the manufacturer and the consumer, especially if you are the one that "owns the relationship" you are on the hook for strict liability. [1] Starting from Page 17 -- https://cases.justia.com/california/court-of-appeal/2020-d075738.pdf?ts=1597343456 https://cases.justia.com/california/court-of-appeal/2020-d07...
- imglorp 6y ago
  Then maybe this return policy will only apply to buyers in CA?
  - myself248 6y ago
    Now I'm wondering if I can establish personal nexus in CA sufficient to qualify for such protections, while continuing to reside in place without all the Californians...
    - djsumdog 6y ago
      California is big enough and the scope wide enough that Amazon will most likely have to address it for the entire country. I doubt we'll see some items taken off listings in California but still available in Texas. That would open up a whole new can of poop.
    - dangus 6y ago
      There’s something off about this comment, and simultaneously I’m aware that my response is reading way too far into it. The last phrase you use continues to perpetuate the odd perception that Californians are weird extreme hippie aliens that Middle America should avoid at all costs. And then, your comment simultaneously envies California’s strong worker and consumer protections. It’s almost as if Californians aren’t weirdo hippies and they’re just normal people who have demanded and received robust environmental, safety, labor, and privacy protection. I’d love to live in California right next to those weird Californians and be able to make CCPA requests. I’d also love for non-competes to be illegal. It’s almost as if other states’ citizens have been failed by their governments in comparison, and/or their citizens are too unaware of these issues to have lobbied for data protection laws. It has astonished me that a certain political party has just gotten away with labeling an entire state in our country as a bad place, especially one as big and diverse as California. Maybe that certain political party would have a chance to win California if Joe from Texas didn’t think California was a Mad Max liberal wasteland and considered taking a new job there.
fxtentacle 6y ago
Amazon is sort of like a consignment store where all the products from all the merchants are mixed into one large bin and you need special equipment to figure out the seller of each item, but of course it's fully acceptable for them to just give a fake name and address. Plus nobody checks what you sell for legality. If a consignment store would allow random people from all over the world to sell illegal and dangerous goods with a fake ID while dodging taxes... would anyone find that tolerable? Why accept the website equivalent?
dilandau 6y ago
Finally we are being honest. Amzn is a flea market.
rorykoehler 6y ago
Liability sits with whoever gets my money (ie Amazon). It’s not complicated.

wtallis 6y ago

Consignment stores and flea markets are for secondhand goods. Most of what is sold on Amazon is represented by Amazon as new rather than used.

stickfigure 6y ago
This is not correct. There are plenty of subdivided retail marketplaces (with a single cashier) that sell new products. There's one here where I live in Winters (just north of SF), and I found them frequently in the midwest when I lived there. Merchants rent small blocks of space from the establishment; what they put on the shelves is really up to them. Yes, this is commonly secondhand goods. But not always. The shop in Winters is all new products, more like a brick-and-mortar Etsy. It's a thing.
- kadoban 6y ago
  That starts to be somewhat comparable, but still doesn't feel much like Amazon. Amazon isn't separate blocks of space, and merchants don't really rent their own areas. On a website that'd look like amazon.com/mycrapcompanystore/ or something. As a customer I just go to amazon and search for what I want. They choose what specific items I should see, in what order, and I am barely aware of who actually sent the item to Amazon. You have to look pretty closely to even tell. In many cases it's just not even possible to choose, with the way Amazon combines their stock.
  - crooked-v 6y ago
    Ebay is a good contrast here, as while it has the same general search-for-a-thing idea, it makes it very clear that you're buying this one specific item from this one specific merchant.
    - myself248 6y ago
      And I'd argue that's a far superior model. I go to eBay for a lot of items that I suspect may be graymarket but I'm willing to risk it, specifically BECAUSE I know exactly which seller sold me the thing, and I can go back on them if it's bad, and eBay has pretty good protections for buyers. I could buy the same goods on Amazon but have none of the traceability or protections.
      - AkelaA 6y ago
        Plus Ebay incentives sellers to upload their own photos and written descriptions of the product they're selling, rather then having generic product pages for multiple listings. If I'm buying a second hand item like an old video game or something I always use Ebay since I can see what the product actually looks like and can make my own judgement on condition based on the photos. Something you can't really do on Amazon.
  - duskwuff 6y ago
    Technically there is a "storefront" page for each seller on Amazon, but it's not easy to get to and is awkward to navigate. Here's an example of one: https://www.amazon.com/s?me=A30QSGOJR8LMXA https://www.amazon.com/s?me=A30QSGOJR8LMXA Overall I'd agree, though -- Amazon has gone out of their way to take focus away from the individual merchants on their site and give customers the impression that they're buying items "from Amazon".
- vkou 6y ago
  When I buy a widget from Amazon, I'm not actually getting a widget from some particular merchant on Amazon. I'm getting a widget that was pulled out of a co-mingled inventory box at some Amazon warehouse. Amazon owns the entire shopping experience, end-to-end. They run the website. They design the website. They handle payments. They advertise the items ("Customers who bought Foo also bought Bar"). They handle shipping. They handle refunds. They handle warehousing. But they don't seem to want to own the responsibility. I'm assuming that's because it's not the profitable part of this equation.
  - donatj 6y ago
    That’s not entirely true. Some sellers keep their stock in amazons warehouse but others, I believe most, drop ship their items themselves. Like 12 years ago I used to build stock/cart systems for said drop shippers.
    - lozaning 6y ago
      Anymore if you're not FBA you'll never get the buy box.
  - manigandham 6y ago
    No, you buy direct from Amazon or from 3rd-party sellers. These sellers can store and ship by themselves, or pay to have it stored and shipped by Amazon (this is called FBA - Fulfilled by Amazon) because it's faster and qualifies immediately for Prime which customers want. You can tell the difference when you buy, it's just not blatantly obviously unless the main Amazon listing is out of stock and you click on the "other sellers" link yourself. Go to your orders page and every product will tell you the "sold by" name.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - jacobush 6y ago
      It sounds like a judge must decide if it’s co-mingled or not, from the consumer’s perspective.
- Stratoscope 6y ago
  You must be talking about Winters Collective? I didn't know about it before, so I tracked it down and it sounds like such a nice place! I used to drive up and down 505 all the time visiting family in Oregon. It's been a while, but a stop in Winters will be in store for my next trip. "a unique collection of vendors who work in partnership to market as a group and showcase the goods of several small businesses in one creative space." https://winterscollective.com/ https://winterscollective.com/
  - myself248 6y ago
    We have a thing like that in Michigan called Gibraltar Trade Center. At least, parts of GTC operate that way. There are also individual booths with individual cashiers. It's a great place to get a hepatitis tattoo, scam "6,000,000-watt" car stereo amplifier, or dubious candles that all smell like crayons plus whatever they claim to smell like. And these days, covid too.
    - stickfigure 6y ago
      Winters Collective is... not like that. It's a small storefront (maybe 1000 sq ft?) selling local handmade crafts. Etsy really is the best comparison. It's nice, but probably appeals mostly to tourists. Downtown Winters is a great stop if you're coming up/down the 505. It's cute. Main street is closed off to vehicles and set up with tables for open air dining and wine tasting. There are two wineries, two breweries, and remarkably good restaurants for a town pop 7,000.

ChuckMcM 6y ago

This is laid out in the judgement[1]. In California, if you are an integral part between the manufacturer and the consumer, especially if you are the one that "owns the relationship" you are on the hook for strict liability. [1] Starting from Page 17 -- https://cases.justia.com/california/court-of-appeal/2020-d075738.pdf?ts=1597343456 https://cases.justia.com/california/court-of-appeal/2020-d07...

imglorp 6y ago
Then maybe this return policy will only apply to buyers in CA?
- myself248 6y ago
  Now I'm wondering if I can establish personal nexus in CA sufficient to qualify for such protections, while continuing to reside in place without all the Californians...
  - djsumdog 6y ago
    California is big enough and the scope wide enough that Amazon will most likely have to address it for the entire country. I doubt we'll see some items taken off listings in California but still available in Texas. That would open up a whole new can of poop.
  - dangus 6y ago
    There’s something off about this comment, and simultaneously I’m aware that my response is reading way too far into it. The last phrase you use continues to perpetuate the odd perception that Californians are weird extreme hippie aliens that Middle America should avoid at all costs. And then, your comment simultaneously envies California’s strong worker and consumer protections. It’s almost as if Californians aren’t weirdo hippies and they’re just normal people who have demanded and received robust environmental, safety, labor, and privacy protection. I’d love to live in California right next to those weird Californians and be able to make CCPA requests. I’d also love for non-competes to be illegal. It’s almost as if other states’ citizens have been failed by their governments in comparison, and/or their citizens are too unaware of these issues to have lobbied for data protection laws. It has astonished me that a certain political party has just gotten away with labeling an entire state in our country as a bad place, especially one as big and diverse as California. Maybe that certain political party would have a chance to win California if Joe from Texas didn’t think California was a Mad Max liberal wasteland and considered taking a new job there.

fxtentacle 6y ago

Amazon is sort of like a consignment store where all the products from all the merchants are mixed into one large bin and you need special equipment to figure out the seller of each item, but of course it's fully acceptable for them to just give a fake name and address. Plus nobody checks what you sell for legality. If a consignment store would allow random people from all over the world to sell illegal and dangerous goods with a fake ID while dodging taxes... would anyone find that tolerable? Why accept the website equivalent?

dilandau 6y ago

Finally we are being honest. Amzn is a flea market.

rorykoehler 6y ago

Liability sits with whoever gets my money (ie Amazon). It’s not complicated.