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Nothing could paint a clearer picture than this: America is no longer a place that smart people want to move to. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think that, rega

by Kapura 6y ago

Nothing could paint a clearer picture than this: America is no longer a place that smart people want to move to. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think that, regardless of how the election shapes up this year, next year will see an enormous uptick in the number of Americans emigrating to a country less burdened with problems of its own making.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
You don't think it had anything to do with the fact that there's a pandemic on?
- asimpletune 6y ago
  If anything the pandemic is an even better indicator of US decline.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I don't think the decline narrative makes sense here. Most of the H1B applicants would have been from India, where the pandemic isn't any better controlled.
amir734jj 6y ago
Universities pay better in China, South Korea and Canada for professors to do research. I personally know people who moved out of United States after getting PhD and postdoc to those countries.
- actuator 6y ago
  I am surprised to see Canada there. Jobs in tech in Canada pay lte half of the comps in US. Between SK and China, SK's per capita income is not far off from US but China's is. I am surprised China is able to compete better than US purely on financial might.
  - amir734jj 6y ago
    Not everyone goes to be a professor at MIT or Harvard. State Universities actually don't pay good and it's hard to get tenure (literally have to wait for someone to get retired or die ...)
  - oneplane 6y ago
    There is the uncertainty and high cost of living in the USA as well, so having a high salary isn't the big factor people always make it out to be. If you make 1000000 but all of that does down the drain because the country you earn it in doesn't have common facilities available you end up with a pretty bad bottom line.
  - vsskanth 6y ago
    For Canada, its not always about comp. If you're Indian there is a 100+ year (projected) waitlist for US permanent residency. Chinese have a 5 year waitlist and every other nationality has no waitlist. This means for the whole waiting period you need to be employed (in a job that's related to your degree) or you lose legal status. Compare this to Canada where you arrive with permanent residency, have good healthcare and don't have to worry about losing your residence. Easier to put down roots. The best deal is for those who earn their stock grants in the US and make a mid-career move to Canada. They start with a good asset base.
    - actuator 6y ago
      That is very specific to Indians. What percentage of them make up the people in unis/research? From your comment it seems like rest aren't that affected by this. The stock grants in US ones definitely are better off, a lot of Europeans also use this and go back.
      - vsskanth 6y ago
        Majority of STEM grad students in the US are either from India or China. They are also the biggest pool of potential immigrants (2B+ combined population). For Chinese, it's becoming more and more attractive to just stay back (current geopolitical tensions aren't helping). If you're a EU citizen, grad school in the US is not that attractive comparitively unless you're specifically targeting a lab. Over there you have flexible options like doing a PhD through research projects at work (some govts even give you a subsidy for this). Full time grad students have decent benefits too.
hellofunk 6y ago
First half of 2020 also a 6X increase in the number of Americans giving up their citizenship compared to the prior year.
- dominotw 6y ago
  heard the same thing in 2015 http://www.allgov.com/news/us-and-the-world/record-number-of-americans-giving-up-citizenship-150510?news=856444 http://www.allgov.com/news/us-and-the-world/record-number-of... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-07/americans-abroad-top-quarterly-record-for-giving-up-citizenship https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-07/americans... another one from 2017 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/10/a-potentially-historic-number-of-people-are-giving-up-their-u-s-citizenship/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/10... > compared to the prior year why only compare it to previous year? Previous year was the lowest. ~450 compared to ~3500 in 2014. Alternate headline from last year: CNN: Record number of americans not giving up citizenship .A fall of 600% compared to Obama presidency.
dominotw 6y ago
> America is no longer a place that smart people want to move to. It still is. you theory is that it suddenly stopped being that country suddenly from April of this year? Totally absurd logic. Check back how many ppl apply for h1b next year when pandemic is over.
- gambiting 6y ago
  Obviously this is a sample of size one, but growing up my dream was to move to the US. Now I wouldn't move there no matter what. Maybe for some absolutely stupid amount of money, but that's true of literally anywhere. Edit: actually, it's a bit more than one - I have friends who work for SV companies in their London offices and they all rejected real offers to move to US(with an increase in pay) citing issues plaguing the country. My cousin had a transfer visa already arranged and ready and changed his mind for the same reason - US is just not an attractive country to move to. Or at least in my mind it's equal to Russia as a place to live in - I'd consider it for good money but it's not normally on my list because it seems like the systematic issues of the country are off putting.
  - dominotw 6y ago
    > Now I wouldn't move there no matter what. Maybe for some absolutely stupid amount of money. :) stupid amount of money , what would this be for you, compared to current amount of money you make? > with an increase in pay Maybe they were low balled. I will bet my house that they will move to SV in a heartbeat if they were paid what SV engineers get paid. Just wait till pandemic is over.
    - gambiting 6y ago
      I don't even know, I have everything I need, I honestly don't see or have a need to change a job for more money. If someone offered me 500k I'd obviously give it a serious consideration because that's "stupid amount of money", but even then I'd do it for a year or two and come back(I could get several houses for that amount of money here lol). But like I said, that's true of anywhere - offer me 500k and I'll work in North Korea for a bit. >>. I will bet my house that they will move to SV in a heartbeat if they were paid what SV engineers get paid I don't know, I have a friend who moved from a £50k/year job in UK to a $250k/year job in the US(SV) and he's currently planning to move back, he massively dislikes everything about working and living in the US. Money isn't everything. But of course, these are anecdotes.
secondcoming 6y ago
Well, there's no way that me, a white guy, would go to work for FAANG in Silicon Valley. An office abroad, sure, but not there.
sremani 6y ago
1. H1-B is time bound , 3yrs with 3 yr renewal 2. I may be wrong, but if you get H1 completely approved the clock starts ticking even if you are unable to travel to US 3. Looks like students\ppl already here picked up, and those coming from outside did not because in spite of having sponsor (a consulting company), they have to find job in pandemic job market and of course travel restrictions. America is still the place smart people want to come. edit: i would appreciate feedback while you downvote me, what the disagreement is.
LoSboccacc 6y ago
so how would I go and apply for a visa then beyond the green card lottery? seems a great moment to get there. the situation will solve itself sooner or later and at that point you'd be in ahead of the frontline
wdr1 6y ago
> Nothing could paint a clearer picture than this: America is no longer a place that smart people want to move to Poppycock. That runs counter to the article's statement there were a record number of applications. Something happened between the application deadline in early April & now, and that something is quite obviously COVID-19.

by Kapura 6y ago

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

You don't think it had anything to do with the fact that there's a pandemic on?

asimpletune 6y ago
If anything the pandemic is an even better indicator of US decline.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I don't think the decline narrative makes sense here. Most of the H1B applicants would have been from India, where the pandemic isn't any better controlled.

amir734jj 6y ago

Universities pay better in China, South Korea and Canada for professors to do research. I personally know people who moved out of United States after getting PhD and postdoc to those countries.

actuator 6y ago
I am surprised to see Canada there. Jobs in tech in Canada pay lte half of the comps in US. Between SK and China, SK's per capita income is not far off from US but China's is. I am surprised China is able to compete better than US purely on financial might.
- amir734jj 6y ago
  Not everyone goes to be a professor at MIT or Harvard. State Universities actually don't pay good and it's hard to get tenure (literally have to wait for someone to get retired or die ...)
- oneplane 6y ago
  There is the uncertainty and high cost of living in the USA as well, so having a high salary isn't the big factor people always make it out to be. If you make 1000000 but all of that does down the drain because the country you earn it in doesn't have common facilities available you end up with a pretty bad bottom line.
- vsskanth 6y ago
  For Canada, its not always about comp. If you're Indian there is a 100+ year (projected) waitlist for US permanent residency. Chinese have a 5 year waitlist and every other nationality has no waitlist. This means for the whole waiting period you need to be employed (in a job that's related to your degree) or you lose legal status. Compare this to Canada where you arrive with permanent residency, have good healthcare and don't have to worry about losing your residence. Easier to put down roots. The best deal is for those who earn their stock grants in the US and make a mid-career move to Canada. They start with a good asset base.
  - actuator 6y ago
    That is very specific to Indians. What percentage of them make up the people in unis/research? From your comment it seems like rest aren't that affected by this. The stock grants in US ones definitely are better off, a lot of Europeans also use this and go back.
    - vsskanth 6y ago
      Majority of STEM grad students in the US are either from India or China. They are also the biggest pool of potential immigrants (2B+ combined population). For Chinese, it's becoming more and more attractive to just stay back (current geopolitical tensions aren't helping). If you're a EU citizen, grad school in the US is not that attractive comparitively unless you're specifically targeting a lab. Over there you have flexible options like doing a PhD through research projects at work (some govts even give you a subsidy for this). Full time grad students have decent benefits too.

hellofunk 6y ago

First half of 2020 also a 6X increase in the number of Americans giving up their citizenship compared to the prior year.

dominotw 6y ago
heard the same thing in 2015 http://www.allgov.com/news/us-and-the-world/record-number-of-americans-giving-up-citizenship-150510?news=856444 http://www.allgov.com/news/us-and-the-world/record-number-of... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-07/americans-abroad-top-quarterly-record-for-giving-up-citizenship https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-07/americans... another one from 2017 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/10/a-potentially-historic-number-of-people-are-giving-up-their-u-s-citizenship/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/10... > compared to the prior year why only compare it to previous year? Previous year was the lowest. ~450 compared to ~3500 in 2014. Alternate headline from last year: CNN: Record number of americans not giving up citizenship .A fall of 600% compared to Obama presidency.

dominotw 6y ago

> America is no longer a place that smart people want to move to. It still is. you theory is that it suddenly stopped being that country suddenly from April of this year? Totally absurd logic. Check back how many ppl apply for h1b next year when pandemic is over.

gambiting 6y ago
Obviously this is a sample of size one, but growing up my dream was to move to the US. Now I wouldn't move there no matter what. Maybe for some absolutely stupid amount of money, but that's true of literally anywhere. Edit: actually, it's a bit more than one - I have friends who work for SV companies in their London offices and they all rejected real offers to move to US(with an increase in pay) citing issues plaguing the country. My cousin had a transfer visa already arranged and ready and changed his mind for the same reason - US is just not an attractive country to move to. Or at least in my mind it's equal to Russia as a place to live in - I'd consider it for good money but it's not normally on my list because it seems like the systematic issues of the country are off putting.
- dominotw 6y ago
  > Now I wouldn't move there no matter what. Maybe for some absolutely stupid amount of money. :) stupid amount of money , what would this be for you, compared to current amount of money you make? > with an increase in pay Maybe they were low balled. I will bet my house that they will move to SV in a heartbeat if they were paid what SV engineers get paid. Just wait till pandemic is over.
  - gambiting 6y ago
    I don't even know, I have everything I need, I honestly don't see or have a need to change a job for more money. If someone offered me 500k I'd obviously give it a serious consideration because that's "stupid amount of money", but even then I'd do it for a year or two and come back(I could get several houses for that amount of money here lol). But like I said, that's true of anywhere - offer me 500k and I'll work in North Korea for a bit. >>. I will bet my house that they will move to SV in a heartbeat if they were paid what SV engineers get paid I don't know, I have a friend who moved from a £50k/year job in UK to a $250k/year job in the US(SV) and he's currently planning to move back, he massively dislikes everything about working and living in the US. Money isn't everything. But of course, these are anecdotes.

secondcoming 6y ago

Well, there's no way that me, a white guy, would go to work for FAANG in Silicon Valley. An office abroad, sure, but not there.

sremani 6y ago

1. H1-B is time bound , 3yrs with 3 yr renewal 2. I may be wrong, but if you get H1 completely approved the clock starts ticking even if you are unable to travel to US 3. Looks like students\ppl already here picked up, and those coming from outside did not because in spite of having sponsor (a consulting company), they have to find job in pandemic job market and of course travel restrictions. America is still the place smart people want to come. edit: i would appreciate feedback while you downvote me, what the disagreement is.

LoSboccacc 6y ago

so how would I go and apply for a visa then beyond the green card lottery? seems a great moment to get there. the situation will solve itself sooner or later and at that point you'd be in ahead of the frontline

wdr1 6y ago

> Nothing could paint a clearer picture than this: America is no longer a place that smart people want to move to Poppycock. That runs counter to the article's statement there were a record number of applications. Something happened between the application deadline in early April & now, and that something is quite obviously COVID-19.