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Peter Thiel: The Education Bubble Is Becoming Dangerous (2018) [video]

45 points by admiralspoo 6y ago

api 6y ago
I find myself having binary reactions to virtually all of Thiel's positions: I either strongly agree or strongly disagree. I guess that's what his methodological contrarianism generates. I agree with this one. Not only are college costs out of control, but the fact that colleges have seen tuition increase much faster than inflation while simultaneously decreasing the number of real tenure track positions and other academic positions should be a national scandal. It's borderline fraud. What the hell is all that money going toward? As near as I can tell it's unnecessary vanity buildings, executive salaries, and runaway bloat in administrative offices. It's going toward everything but real tenure track professorships, better teacher/student ratios, and everything else a university should be doing.
- sradman 6y ago
  See The Baumol Effect by Alex Tabarrok [1]: > After looking at education and health care and doing a statistical analysis covering 139 industries, Helland and I conclude that a big factor in price increases over time in the rising price of skilled labor. The interesting question, in my mind, is why the United States is an outlier compared to other advanced nation states. [1] https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/05/the-baumol-effect.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/05/th...
advaita 6y ago
IMO, adding 2018 in the title would be better.
Taniwha 6y ago
At this point I think Thiel lives in his own wealth bubble so distinct from the experience of most people that his reckons just should be ignored by default. I suspect that the main reason we see what he has to say so much is that he can pay a publicist to get people to listen to him .... he's essentially trying to buy\ his way into the 'marketplace of ideas' using money rather than actual ideas, essentially trying to skew the marketplace in his favor
- asldkjaslkdj 6y ago
  When you put it that way it sounds really sad.
- istorical 6y ago
  Seems to me that you failed to address his claims.
- Ziggy_Zaggy 6y ago
  Although there's merit to the fact that people can be blinded by their wealth-bubbles to the point that they cannot adequately identify/assess solutions to address problems that seem obvious to the rest of society, to discount someone's views based on their wealth-bubble status is likely ultimately a recipe for division, grid-lock, and a more closed-off society. Perhaps it's more useful to try to evlauate an individual's ideas based on the merits of their feasbility and overall utility versus writing them off by default in order to achieve a more functional society for everyone?
  - Taniwha 6y ago
    actually it was because of his expressed ideas that I was saying I think that he doesn't seem to live in the same reality as the rest of us
  - baix777 6y ago
    Why should we listen to the ideas of a rich guy rather than an educator? How many times have have you seen an education expert on this site discussing these topics from a critical standpoint? The bigger issue is why to people want to listen to rich people rather than experts in the field? This reminds me the climate change where some people don't want to listen to the experts but instead want to listen so someone (or news organization) they already know.
    - badhabit 6y ago
      don't discriminate much, take every idea, the odd idea that gots strong reaction (in a good, strange, nonobvious way), probably is on to something. same idea with anova, the variable that causes a lot of variance is probably significant.
pfkurtz 6y ago
Hard for me to separate theses Thiel is partially right about from the great harm his existence has done to our species.
- asldkjaslkdj 6y ago
  He's not nearly the first one to make this claim, so I'm not sure why it's even notable... "billionaire believes an oft-feared problem"
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    Yes, but Thiel has been saying this for many years, if not decades, and he did put his money where his mouth was, by paying students to drop out as part of the Thiel Fellowship program: http://thielfellowship.org/ http://thielfellowship.org/
ykevinator 6y ago
Peter Theil is an insulated idiot genius who happens to be right on this
- aklemm 6y ago
  Couldn’t have said it better myself.
matthewaveryusa 6y ago
I find that discoverability is the problem. Out of all the classes I took, 2 without a doubt made the whole experience worth it and is still paying dividends: (discrete math and advanced algorithms) -- but I had no idea at the time that they would be the ones that would provide so much value. They were the classes that convinced me that I wanted to write software and not do electrical engineering. I wonder how you can solve this without simply going through the four years and hoping for the best.
- avindroth 6y ago
  Which discrete math class? (Currently trying to decide on a math class for autumn as CS major)
  - matthewaveryusa 6y ago
    This one back in 2014 -- just the intro undergrad class. I actually absorb very little from lectures and do most of my learning by reading and doing problems myself -- the book was so good I read it cover to cover and did a lot of the practice problems. https://wl11gp.neu.edu/udcprod8/bwckctlg.p_disp_course_detail?cat_term_in=201610&subj_code_in=MATH&crse_numb_in=2310 https://wl11gp.neu.edu/udcprod8/bwckctlg.p_disp_course_detai... https://www.amazon.com/Discrete-Mathematics-Applications-Kenneth-Rosen/dp/0073229725/ref=mp_s_a_1_12?dchild=1&keywords=discrete+mathematics+and+its+applications+8th+edition&qid=1597488825&sprefix=discrete+math&sr=8-12 https://www.amazon.com/Discrete-Mathematics-Applications-Ken...
jb775 6y ago
I agree college is overpriced, but I doubt Thiel's companies often hire people without a formal college education. He's really just stating the obvious here without mentioning any viable alternatives.
- cinquemb 6y ago
  I don't think hes the type of person to offer the next religion that people should crowd into… maybe less focus on working for companies that filter on "formal college education" above all else, even if they are "his" companies (its debatable the level of control an owner has over the day to day operation of companies esp if you own a lot of companies [principle-agent issues]).
- rsj_hn 6y ago
  Agreed. And it's not just "overpriced", because "overprice" says you are not getting enough output per input. In this case, with higher education, the economy (and nation) needs skilled workers, and universities are not producing them in the quantities needed even as they graduate more and more students who have degrees that don't help them succeed in the job market. I think the solution should be a combination of things: 1. Make universities cheaper. Say fire 90% of non-academic staff, and force universities to have more academic staff than non-academic staff. Also make admission more rigorous, so they are more selective. Also get rid of the non-tenure track slave labor in academic staff. Ideally roughly 1/3 of the population should go to university, say 30% fresh from college students and 5% older students. 2. Provide vocational training so that people can have as option vocational education such as electrical work, carpentry, plumbing, machine tools, and yes, programming, day care, medical assistant, accountant, etc. Vocational training should be max 3 years of focused training with an apprenticeship period in the last year, and unlike universities, these vocational schools should be setup so that everyone can access at least a couple of vocational school options, at government expense. Ideally 2/3 of the population should go to a vocational school. 3. Stop providing government loans to universities entirely. Universities can provide scholarships and there should be government scholarships available based solely on merit. There should also be student aid based solely on financial need, but with high academic requirements, otherwise route the student to a vocational school, which should be fully paid for by the government. 4. Safety valve. If someone goes to a vocational school there should be an option to go back to university based on academic merit. Say a construction worker really takes to it and wants to become an architect, etc. The safety valve should be rare, say 5% max. 5. Online learning/certifications for people switching specializations roughly within the same field.
sradman 6y ago
This appears the final section of a 2014 episode of Conversations with Bill Kristol [1]: > CH. 6 : THE HIGHER EDUCATION BUBBLE (1:13:57 - 1:36:39) > Is American higher education heading towards a major fiscal crisis? Thiel explains he thinks it is. [1] https://conversationswithbillkristol.org/video/peter-thiel/ https://conversationswithbillkristol.org/video/peter-thiel/

45 points by admiralspoo 6y ago

api 6y ago

I find myself having binary reactions to virtually all of Thiel's positions: I either strongly agree or strongly disagree. I guess that's what his methodological contrarianism generates. I agree with this one. Not only are college costs out of control, but the fact that colleges have seen tuition increase much faster than inflation while simultaneously decreasing the number of real tenure track positions and other academic positions should be a national scandal. It's borderline fraud. What the hell is all that money going toward? As near as I can tell it's unnecessary vanity buildings, executive salaries, and runaway bloat in administrative offices. It's going toward everything but real tenure track professorships, better teacher/student ratios, and everything else a university should be doing.

sradman 6y ago
See The Baumol Effect by Alex Tabarrok [1]: > After looking at education and health care and doing a statistical analysis covering 139 industries, Helland and I conclude that a big factor in price increases over time in the rising price of skilled labor. The interesting question, in my mind, is why the United States is an outlier compared to other advanced nation states. [1] https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/05/the-baumol-effect.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/05/th...

advaita 6y ago

IMO, adding 2018 in the title would be better.

Taniwha 6y ago

At this point I think Thiel lives in his own wealth bubble so distinct from the experience of most people that his reckons just should be ignored by default. I suspect that the main reason we see what he has to say so much is that he can pay a publicist to get people to listen to him .... he's essentially trying to buy\ his way into the 'marketplace of ideas' using money rather than actual ideas, essentially trying to skew the marketplace in his favor

asldkjaslkdj 6y ago
When you put it that way it sounds really sad.
istorical 6y ago
Seems to me that you failed to address his claims.
Ziggy_Zaggy 6y ago
Although there's merit to the fact that people can be blinded by their wealth-bubbles to the point that they cannot adequately identify/assess solutions to address problems that seem obvious to the rest of society, to discount someone's views based on their wealth-bubble status is likely ultimately a recipe for division, grid-lock, and a more closed-off society. Perhaps it's more useful to try to evlauate an individual's ideas based on the merits of their feasbility and overall utility versus writing them off by default in order to achieve a more functional society for everyone?
- Taniwha 6y ago
  actually it was because of his expressed ideas that I was saying I think that he doesn't seem to live in the same reality as the rest of us
- baix777 6y ago
  Why should we listen to the ideas of a rich guy rather than an educator? How many times have have you seen an education expert on this site discussing these topics from a critical standpoint? The bigger issue is why to people want to listen to rich people rather than experts in the field? This reminds me the climate change where some people don't want to listen to the experts but instead want to listen so someone (or news organization) they already know.
  - badhabit 6y ago
    don't discriminate much, take every idea, the odd idea that gots strong reaction (in a good, strange, nonobvious way), probably is on to something. same idea with anova, the variable that causes a lot of variance is probably significant.

pfkurtz 6y ago

Hard for me to separate theses Thiel is partially right about from the great harm his existence has done to our species.

asldkjaslkdj 6y ago
He's not nearly the first one to make this claim, so I'm not sure why it's even notable... "billionaire believes an oft-feared problem"
- chrisco255 6y ago
  Yes, but Thiel has been saying this for many years, if not decades, and he did put his money where his mouth was, by paying students to drop out as part of the Thiel Fellowship program: http://thielfellowship.org/ http://thielfellowship.org/

ykevinator 6y ago

Peter Theil is an insulated idiot genius who happens to be right on this

aklemm 6y ago
Couldn’t have said it better myself.

matthewaveryusa 6y ago

I find that discoverability is the problem. Out of all the classes I took, 2 without a doubt made the whole experience worth it and is still paying dividends: (discrete math and advanced algorithms) -- but I had no idea at the time that they would be the ones that would provide so much value. They were the classes that convinced me that I wanted to write software and not do electrical engineering. I wonder how you can solve this without simply going through the four years and hoping for the best.

avindroth 6y ago
Which discrete math class? (Currently trying to decide on a math class for autumn as CS major)
- matthewaveryusa 6y ago
  This one back in 2014 -- just the intro undergrad class. I actually absorb very little from lectures and do most of my learning by reading and doing problems myself -- the book was so good I read it cover to cover and did a lot of the practice problems. https://wl11gp.neu.edu/udcprod8/bwckctlg.p_disp_course_detail?cat_term_in=201610&subj_code_in=MATH&crse_numb_in=2310 https://wl11gp.neu.edu/udcprod8/bwckctlg.p_disp_course_detai... https://www.amazon.com/Discrete-Mathematics-Applications-Kenneth-Rosen/dp/0073229725/ref=mp_s_a_1_12?dchild=1&keywords=discrete+mathematics+and+its+applications+8th+edition&qid=1597488825&sprefix=discrete+math&sr=8-12 https://www.amazon.com/Discrete-Mathematics-Applications-Ken...

jb775 6y ago

I agree college is overpriced, but I doubt Thiel's companies often hire people without a formal college education. He's really just stating the obvious here without mentioning any viable alternatives.

cinquemb 6y ago
I don't think hes the type of person to offer the next religion that people should crowd into… maybe less focus on working for companies that filter on "formal college education" above all else, even if they are "his" companies (its debatable the level of control an owner has over the day to day operation of companies esp if you own a lot of companies [principle-agent issues]).
rsj_hn 6y ago
Agreed. And it's not just "overpriced", because "overprice" says you are not getting enough output per input. In this case, with higher education, the economy (and nation) needs skilled workers, and universities are not producing them in the quantities needed even as they graduate more and more students who have degrees that don't help them succeed in the job market. I think the solution should be a combination of things: 1. Make universities cheaper. Say fire 90% of non-academic staff, and force universities to have more academic staff than non-academic staff. Also make admission more rigorous, so they are more selective. Also get rid of the non-tenure track slave labor in academic staff. Ideally roughly 1/3 of the population should go to university, say 30% fresh from college students and 5% older students. 2. Provide vocational training so that people can have as option vocational education such as electrical work, carpentry, plumbing, machine tools, and yes, programming, day care, medical assistant, accountant, etc. Vocational training should be max 3 years of focused training with an apprenticeship period in the last year, and unlike universities, these vocational schools should be setup so that everyone can access at least a couple of vocational school options, at government expense. Ideally 2/3 of the population should go to a vocational school. 3. Stop providing government loans to universities entirely. Universities can provide scholarships and there should be government scholarships available based solely on merit. There should also be student aid based solely on financial need, but with high academic requirements, otherwise route the student to a vocational school, which should be fully paid for by the government. 4. Safety valve. If someone goes to a vocational school there should be an option to go back to university based on academic merit. Say a construction worker really takes to it and wants to become an architect, etc. The safety valve should be rare, say 5% max. 5. Online learning/certifications for people switching specializations roughly within the same field.

sradman 6y ago

This appears the final section of a 2014 episode of Conversations with Bill Kristol [1]: > CH. 6 : THE HIGHER EDUCATION BUBBLE (1:13:57 - 1:36:39) > Is American higher education heading towards a major fiscal crisis? Thiel explains he thinks it is. [1] https://conversationswithbillkristol.org/video/peter-thiel/ https://conversationswithbillkristol.org/video/peter-thiel/