6 ms·

'Street Crisis' team to replace San Francisco police on mental health calls

42 points by MilnerRoute 6y ago

dmitrygr 6y ago
I've had to call 911 for such cause once in SF. A hobo tried to stab me with a needle, and chased after me. I called 911 specifically because i wanted someone to come and use force to keep me safe, as it would be illegal for me to use force myself (in modern countries, the state usually has the monopoly on use of force, and self defense needs to be proven beyond many doubts). > The response teams will be equipped > with at least one paramedic from the > Fire Department and a behavioral health > clinician and behavioral health peer > from the San Francisco Department of > Public Health. Ok, which one of them is authorized to use force to keep me safe and stab free?
- bmcahren 6y ago
  You're not from the US based on your domain name but you're generally free to defend yourself in the US even within SF. > The defendant is not guilty of [whatever forceful act was used in self defense] if he/she used force against the other person in lawful self defense or in defense of another. The defendant acted in lawful self defense or defense of another if: > The defendant reasonably believed that (he/she or someone else) was in imminent danger of suffering bodily injury (or was in imminent danger of being touched unlawfully); > The defendant reasonably believed that the immediate use of force was necessary to defend against that danger; AND > The defendant used no more force than was reasonably necessary to defend against that danger In your case with the very real risk of a lifelong perhaps terminal disease from the needle and with that being a biological weapon I DO NOT RECOMMEND but by law you could likely use a deadly weapon in response like a bat/knife/pole/brick in an attempt to prevent you or someone else from being stabbed. I am not a lawyer. On the Street Crisis team front, I imagine they are all able to restrain the guy and that they will be equipped with personal defense such as tasers and mace which will be audited HEAVILY if used.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > it would be illegal for me to use force myself (in modern countries, the state usually has the monopoly on use of force). No, it's not "illegal" to defend yourself in the USA. But get the name of a witness or you could end up in court for years. Many laws allow a defense, but you're responsible for meeting the burden of proof and legal fees. (The castle doctrine in some states was enacted to give property owners a stronger legal position for self-defense than just the legal defense option. Of course, that ended up being abused by overly-entitled home owners.) > i wanted someone to come and use force to keep me safe It's a common misunderstanding that the police have an obligation to keep you safe. They don't. The police can enforce a law, but at the end of the day, they don't have to keep you safe in any way. An example is that the police can engage in high-speed pursuits, and if you get run over and die, that's not their problem. I can't tell if you're outside the USA, or if you missed civics class.
  - closeparen 6y ago
    The specific meaning of “the police don’t have to keep you safe” is that you cannot win a lawsuit against the police because you were the victim of a crime. Most communities hire police to do emergency response and would treat a failure of 911 the same way they treat a failure of water or sewer. San Francisco just values this less than other places.
    - kevin_b_er 6y ago
      It also effectively means they can brutalize you for funsies with little to no repercussion in the US.
      - 1DRACOSEA8 6y ago
        And the well to do tech bros coddle up to the testosterone filled reactionaries. “Round them up!” Easy solution, that’s just lazy, you’re not even trying. San Francisco is also not equal to the rest of the US, I would dare say it’s closer to Mexico than anything else, but culturally California is quite diverse in attitude and flora. San Francisco puts up with a lot, always have, always will. It’s just embedded in the humanitarian pro immigrant pro minority passion of our city. I believe there may be remnants of this San Francisco but it is gone for good. 250 Million for Tech Buses and Two stems at Safeway, from London to San Salvador in one fell swoop.
- nexuist 6y ago
  I would hope that in cases where a weapon is being used, the actual police are dispatched, since that is no longer a mental health case and actually just a full-blown violent crime.
- funviolence 6y ago
  bro if you had a permit, handgun, and a Jewish lawyer you could have blown that hobos brains out and had a story to tell when you returned to mother russia.
pmdulaney 6y ago
I imagine SFPD officers will be happy to offload these particular cases. And if the Street Crisis team can't handle a particular individual, they can always bring in the police themselves.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Can’t speak to SFPD, but St Pete in Central Florida is doing something similar, hiring 25 social workers instead of 25 police officers. I’m curious to see if this causes contention between officers and social workers. The social workers are obviously necessary and valuable, but this is likely to lead to a decrease in power for law enforcement based on force numbers if it starts happening at scale.
erlich 6y ago
Why would someone call the police for a non-violent mental health issue? I can only imagine the need if there is a danger or someone will need to be restrained. I can only see this increasing risk of danger to citizens.
- werber 6y ago
  People call the police without altercation all the time, with good intention, from someone sleeping on the street, using in public, having a mental episode in view of others. It's not even a I'm in danger thing a lot of the time, but a I do not know who else to call so I'll press 911 situation. I hope this works out for that city
  - erlich 6y ago
    If an old lady falls down then you call 911 and get an ambulance to come. There's no risk of violence. But with mental illness there is the risk of violence and that is the police's role. I can't see this working out and it's not fair to send in people not able to deal with a situation if it turns violent. You are sending in unarmed people to ENGAGE with someone potentially violent. If something goes wrong, sure they can call the police, but if you have people already engaging with the person it increases the risk for them.
- stu2b50 6y ago
  People call the police for, for example, suicidal people all the time. And no, it doesn't always end well, hence the change.
  - erlich 6y ago
    If someone has a gun and is suicidal there is the chance that they could injure others. I have seen a lot of suicide by police though which is always very tragic and heart breaking, so you definitely have a point. But then with every new encounter there is the chance that they actually start shooting. Also if someone is suicidal they are not too concerned about consequences such as jail because they alrwsdy don't plan to be around to have to face it. So as sad as it is, there is always a high risk of danger to others.
1DRACOSEA8 6y ago
Geez maybe they said, “No human being should be allowed to suffer if he is under the roof of the wealthiest nation in the history of man.” The pain leads to Police, the fear of seeing a future you, leads to shelter seeking grievance gazing.
yc3po 6y ago
This is wonderful news. So many times have cops been called when the only appropriate response would be a mental health counselor, not a bullet into the victim, which they are so very quick to do.
apotatopot 6y ago
I think we did this a few months ago in Albuquerque. They've formed an unarmed alternative police force thing.

42 points by MilnerRoute 6y ago

I've had to call 911 for such cause once in SF. A hobo tried to stab me with a needle, and chased after me. I called 911 specifically because i wanted someone to come and use force to keep me safe, as it would be illegal for me to use force myself (in modern countries, the state usually has the monopoly on use of force, and self defense needs to be proven beyond many doubts). > The response teams will be equipped > with at least one paramedic from the > Fire Department and a behavioral health > clinician and behavioral health peer > from the San Francisco Department of > Public Health. Ok, which one of them is authorized to use force to keep me safe and stab free?

bmcahren 6y ago
You're not from the US based on your domain name but you're generally free to defend yourself in the US even within SF. > The defendant is not guilty of [whatever forceful act was used in self defense] if he/she used force against the other person in lawful self defense or in defense of another. The defendant acted in lawful self defense or defense of another if: > The defendant reasonably believed that (he/she or someone else) was in imminent danger of suffering bodily injury (or was in imminent danger of being touched unlawfully); > The defendant reasonably believed that the immediate use of force was necessary to defend against that danger; AND > The defendant used no more force than was reasonably necessary to defend against that danger In your case with the very real risk of a lifelong perhaps terminal disease from the needle and with that being a biological weapon I DO NOT RECOMMEND but by law you could likely use a deadly weapon in response like a bat/knife/pole/brick in an attempt to prevent you or someone else from being stabbed. I am not a lawyer. On the Street Crisis team front, I imagine they are all able to restrain the guy and that they will be equipped with personal defense such as tasers and mace which will be audited HEAVILY if used.
redis_mlc 6y ago
> it would be illegal for me to use force myself (in modern countries, the state usually has the monopoly on use of force). No, it's not "illegal" to defend yourself in the USA. But get the name of a witness or you could end up in court for years. Many laws allow a defense, but you're responsible for meeting the burden of proof and legal fees. (The castle doctrine in some states was enacted to give property owners a stronger legal position for self-defense than just the legal defense option. Of course, that ended up being abused by overly-entitled home owners.) > i wanted someone to come and use force to keep me safe It's a common misunderstanding that the police have an obligation to keep you safe. They don't. The police can enforce a law, but at the end of the day, they don't have to keep you safe in any way. An example is that the police can engage in high-speed pursuits, and if you get run over and die, that's not their problem. I can't tell if you're outside the USA, or if you missed civics class.
- closeparen 6y ago
  The specific meaning of “the police don’t have to keep you safe” is that you cannot win a lawsuit against the police because you were the victim of a crime. Most communities hire police to do emergency response and would treat a failure of 911 the same way they treat a failure of water or sewer. San Francisco just values this less than other places.
  - kevin_b_er 6y ago
    It also effectively means they can brutalize you for funsies with little to no repercussion in the US.
    - 1DRACOSEA8 6y ago
      And the well to do tech bros coddle up to the testosterone filled reactionaries. “Round them up!” Easy solution, that’s just lazy, you’re not even trying. San Francisco is also not equal to the rest of the US, I would dare say it’s closer to Mexico than anything else, but culturally California is quite diverse in attitude and flora. San Francisco puts up with a lot, always have, always will. It’s just embedded in the humanitarian pro immigrant pro minority passion of our city. I believe there may be remnants of this San Francisco but it is gone for good. 250 Million for Tech Buses and Two stems at Safeway, from London to San Salvador in one fell swoop.
nexuist 6y ago
I would hope that in cases where a weapon is being used, the actual police are dispatched, since that is no longer a mental health case and actually just a full-blown violent crime.
funviolence 6y ago
bro if you had a permit, handgun, and a Jewish lawyer you could have blown that hobos brains out and had a story to tell when you returned to mother russia.

pmdulaney 6y ago

I imagine SFPD officers will be happy to offload these particular cases. And if the Street Crisis team can't handle a particular individual, they can always bring in the police themselves.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Can’t speak to SFPD, but St Pete in Central Florida is doing something similar, hiring 25 social workers instead of 25 police officers. I’m curious to see if this causes contention between officers and social workers. The social workers are obviously necessary and valuable, but this is likely to lead to a decrease in power for law enforcement based on force numbers if it starts happening at scale.

erlich 6y ago

Why would someone call the police for a non-violent mental health issue? I can only imagine the need if there is a danger or someone will need to be restrained. I can only see this increasing risk of danger to citizens.

werber 6y ago
People call the police without altercation all the time, with good intention, from someone sleeping on the street, using in public, having a mental episode in view of others. It's not even a I'm in danger thing a lot of the time, but a I do not know who else to call so I'll press 911 situation. I hope this works out for that city
- erlich 6y ago
  If an old lady falls down then you call 911 and get an ambulance to come. There's no risk of violence. But with mental illness there is the risk of violence and that is the police's role. I can't see this working out and it's not fair to send in people not able to deal with a situation if it turns violent. You are sending in unarmed people to ENGAGE with someone potentially violent. If something goes wrong, sure they can call the police, but if you have people already engaging with the person it increases the risk for them.
stu2b50 6y ago
People call the police for, for example, suicidal people all the time. And no, it doesn't always end well, hence the change.
- erlich 6y ago
  If someone has a gun and is suicidal there is the chance that they could injure others. I have seen a lot of suicide by police though which is always very tragic and heart breaking, so you definitely have a point. But then with every new encounter there is the chance that they actually start shooting. Also if someone is suicidal they are not too concerned about consequences such as jail because they alrwsdy don't plan to be around to have to face it. So as sad as it is, there is always a high risk of danger to others.

1DRACOSEA8 6y ago

Geez maybe they said, “No human being should be allowed to suffer if he is under the roof of the wealthiest nation in the history of man.” The pain leads to Police, the fear of seeing a future you, leads to shelter seeking grievance gazing.

yc3po 6y ago

This is wonderful news. So many times have cops been called when the only appropriate response would be a mental health counselor, not a bullet into the victim, which they are so very quick to do.

apotatopot 6y ago

I think we did this a few months ago in Albuquerque. They've formed an unarmed alternative police force thing.