10 ms·

I think that covid has pretty well killed the idea that the constitution is relevant in any situation the government feels strongly about.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
The government doesn't feel strongly about anything, largely due to inconsistent leadership in the current executive branch and legislative branch.
ceejayoz 6y ago
COVID just demonstrates there's a "we thought y'all would be sensible" hole in the Founders' thought processes. Quarantines have been an accepted thing for millennia - George Washington himself instituted a smallpox one (and a innoculation campaign!) - and the quarantines have all been state-level thus far which the Tenth Amendment offers quite a bit of wiggle room for. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/04/george-washington-beat-smallpox-epidemic-with-controversial-inoculations/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/04/george-wa... Business licenses, state-run liquor stores, handwashing requirements at restaurants, mandatory vaccination to go to school, even masks being required in surgery have all been fine constitutionally.
- xxpor 6y ago
  And there doesn't seem to be any difference between the restrictions now vs what we saw in 1918.
- CobrastanJorji 6y ago
  A newspaper editor was arrested for under the Sedition Act for accusing Washington of incompetence. The whole "what the Founders thought about the Constitution" thing has always been a bit of a stretch.
  - miles 6y ago
    It was Adams, not Washington, and the Sedition Act was repealed after Jefferson became president: United States v. Thomas Cooper https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/sedition-case https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/sedition-case
    - CobrastanJorji 6y ago
      Different newspaper editor. That was the Thomas Cooper case. Benjamin Franklin Bache was also a newspaper editor who was arrested for seditiously slandering president Washington (and also Adams).
      - miles 6y ago
        > Benjamin Franklin Bache was also a newspaper editor who was arrested for seditiously slandering president Washington (and also Adams). Bache certainly antagonized Washington, but he was arrested in June 1798 for criticizing Adams: When Benjamin Franklin’s Grandson was Jailed for Criticizing President Adams https://firstamendmentwatch.org/when-benjamin-franklins-grandson-was-jailed-for-critiquing-his-president-part-i/ https://firstamendmentwatch.org/when-benjamin-franklins-gran... Benjamin Franklin Bache https://www.mountvernon.org/library/digitalhistory/digital-encyclopedia/article/benjamin-franklin-bache/ https://www.mountvernon.org/library/digitalhistory/digital-e...
- stephenhuey 6y ago
  Last night I literally reached the midpoint of a biography on Dr. Benjamin Rush by Fried and after reading all the trouble the doctor took to educate Washington and the Continental Congress (and even fellow physicians) and advocate vociferously time and time again for smallpox inoculation and various other public health changes, I feel a bit of angst about making sure people know Dr. Rush should receive the credit!
disposekinetics 6y ago
I hadn't considered it this way, but you are correct in that the COVID-19 crisis has been putting a lot of stress on the limits of government in the constitution. It also seems clear that federalism and individual liberty are at odds with the effective fighting of highly contagious diseases in a coordinated fashion. I do not want to give the government power because they have a track record of abuse, but how does a society fight something communicable like this?
- dariusj18 6y ago
  Not to be overly dramatic, but the US has been on a recent "You die for My freedom," kick.
- cma 6y ago
  Even Hayek said epidemics were an obvious exception to most of his economic ideology and called for government planning: https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1274130684337172481 https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1274130684337172481 Mostly we just have had anti-biotics, effective vaccines, etc. for everything deadly and have basically forgotten how to govern in the face of the massive externalities presented by communicable diseases. Whether someone thinks covid is severe enough to justify which particular actions is one thing, but if we had something like an incurable smallpox or measles going around there would be a lot more consensus on government action.
  - vladus2000 6y ago
    Would we? I am not convinced the amount of idiocy would be low enough to prevent problems. Most of the arguments I have seen have been "this is a hoax" type or other arguments not based in reality. I agree there is an arugement to be made over whether or not to close based on death rates and whatnot, but I do not hear those arguments that much. The people screaming that it is a hoax and its their freedom I generally assume would react similarly to a even more severe crisis. Maybe I am over estimating their numbers based on the fact that they are loud, but assuming they will realize it is really serious in the cases you describe is a leap I am not willing to make.
colechristensen 6y ago
Why? The constitution gives broad powers to regulate commerce and you don’t really see any of the stay at home or mask orders actually being enforced outside commercial regulation. When I read the local orders they don’t really have teeth, or are written in a way that it is impossible to actually violate them, outside commercial regulation.
kube-system 6y ago
I don't see how this assertion is relevant to the topic at hand here -- but how do you think the government has violated the constitution pertaining to covid? There are certainly a lot of people coming out of the woodwork who are under the misconceptions that "the constitution" prevents the government from requiring their citizens do anything, but I haven't heard any specific claims about violations, let alone a citation of relevant case law. Public health regulations, especially at the state level, are well within the powers legal under the constitution.
- kolbe 6y ago
  Trump’s executive order for the latest stimulus. The stimulus programs are clearly legislative, and as such are constitutionally the duty of congress. He even watched congress debate and negotiate a stimulus package, didn’t like their result, and with an unconstitutional EO, spent a trillion dollars. The choices to disallow religions institutions from congregating while allowing BLM protests seems like it’s a ploy to suppress religion and not an effort to protect people as well.
  - dwater 6y ago
    The BLM protests are all outdoors and have not been shown to be superspreader events. Church services held indoors have been shown many times to be superspreader events. Your argument that any government anywhere in the US tried to use the pandemic to suppress religion is not supported by the evidence. https://www.click2houston.com/health/2020/05/29/what-are-covid-19-super-spreaders-and-why-are-church-choir-lofts-on-the-list/ https://www.click2houston.com/health/2020/05/29/what-are-cov... https://www.businessinsider.com/church-oregon-largest-coronavirus-outbreak-superspreading-2020-6?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/church-oregon-largest-corona... https://www.news4jax.com/i-team/2020/08/04/jacksonville-church-members-experienced-covid-19-symptoms-before-florida-reported-its-1st-cases/ https://www.news4jax.com/i-team/2020/08/04/jacksonville-chur... https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/05/health/ohio-church-coronavirus-spread/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/05/health/ohio-church-coronaviru...
    - kolbe 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
martinflack 6y ago
It's moreso that constitutional jurisprudence is more contextual to civic emergency than most people appreciate.
icedchai 6y ago
If that was true, we would've had a totalitarian-style lock down back in late Feb or early March. That didn't happen, obviously. Instead, the lack of a decisive, coordinated response, and "we'll leave it to the states...." is what caused all of this to get much, much worse.
mindslight 6y ago
Wickard vs Filburn did that long ago. My own judgement is that every single amendment in the Bill of Rights has been effectively nullified, justified by the courts. But still, I don't see how emergency public health orders go against the Constitution.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago

The government doesn't feel strongly about anything, largely due to inconsistent leadership in the current executive branch and legislative branch.

ceejayoz 6y ago

COVID just demonstrates there's a "we thought y'all would be sensible" hole in the Founders' thought processes. Quarantines have been an accepted thing for millennia - George Washington himself instituted a smallpox one (and a innoculation campaign!) - and the quarantines have all been state-level thus far which the Tenth Amendment offers quite a bit of wiggle room for. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/04/george-washington-beat-smallpox-epidemic-with-controversial-inoculations/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/04/george-wa... Business licenses, state-run liquor stores, handwashing requirements at restaurants, mandatory vaccination to go to school, even masks being required in surgery have all been fine constitutionally.

xxpor 6y ago
And there doesn't seem to be any difference between the restrictions now vs what we saw in 1918.
CobrastanJorji 6y ago
A newspaper editor was arrested for under the Sedition Act for accusing Washington of incompetence. The whole "what the Founders thought about the Constitution" thing has always been a bit of a stretch.
- miles 6y ago
  It was Adams, not Washington, and the Sedition Act was repealed after Jefferson became president: United States v. Thomas Cooper https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/sedition-case https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/sedition-case
  - CobrastanJorji 6y ago
    Different newspaper editor. That was the Thomas Cooper case. Benjamin Franklin Bache was also a newspaper editor who was arrested for seditiously slandering president Washington (and also Adams).
    - miles 6y ago
      > Benjamin Franklin Bache was also a newspaper editor who was arrested for seditiously slandering president Washington (and also Adams). Bache certainly antagonized Washington, but he was arrested in June 1798 for criticizing Adams: When Benjamin Franklin’s Grandson was Jailed for Criticizing President Adams https://firstamendmentwatch.org/when-benjamin-franklins-grandson-was-jailed-for-critiquing-his-president-part-i/ https://firstamendmentwatch.org/when-benjamin-franklins-gran... Benjamin Franklin Bache https://www.mountvernon.org/library/digitalhistory/digital-encyclopedia/article/benjamin-franklin-bache/ https://www.mountvernon.org/library/digitalhistory/digital-e...
stephenhuey 6y ago
Last night I literally reached the midpoint of a biography on Dr. Benjamin Rush by Fried and after reading all the trouble the doctor took to educate Washington and the Continental Congress (and even fellow physicians) and advocate vociferously time and time again for smallpox inoculation and various other public health changes, I feel a bit of angst about making sure people know Dr. Rush should receive the credit!

disposekinetics 6y ago

I hadn't considered it this way, but you are correct in that the COVID-19 crisis has been putting a lot of stress on the limits of government in the constitution. It also seems clear that federalism and individual liberty are at odds with the effective fighting of highly contagious diseases in a coordinated fashion. I do not want to give the government power because they have a track record of abuse, but how does a society fight something communicable like this?

dariusj18 6y ago
Not to be overly dramatic, but the US has been on a recent "You die for My freedom," kick.
cma 6y ago
Even Hayek said epidemics were an obvious exception to most of his economic ideology and called for government planning: https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1274130684337172481 https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1274130684337172481 Mostly we just have had anti-biotics, effective vaccines, etc. for everything deadly and have basically forgotten how to govern in the face of the massive externalities presented by communicable diseases. Whether someone thinks covid is severe enough to justify which particular actions is one thing, but if we had something like an incurable smallpox or measles going around there would be a lot more consensus on government action.
- vladus2000 6y ago
  Would we? I am not convinced the amount of idiocy would be low enough to prevent problems. Most of the arguments I have seen have been "this is a hoax" type or other arguments not based in reality. I agree there is an arugement to be made over whether or not to close based on death rates and whatnot, but I do not hear those arguments that much. The people screaming that it is a hoax and its their freedom I generally assume would react similarly to a even more severe crisis. Maybe I am over estimating their numbers based on the fact that they are loud, but assuming they will realize it is really serious in the cases you describe is a leap I am not willing to make.

colechristensen 6y ago

Why? The constitution gives broad powers to regulate commerce and you don’t really see any of the stay at home or mask orders actually being enforced outside commercial regulation. When I read the local orders they don’t really have teeth, or are written in a way that it is impossible to actually violate them, outside commercial regulation.

kube-system 6y ago

I don't see how this assertion is relevant to the topic at hand here -- but how do you think the government has violated the constitution pertaining to covid? There are certainly a lot of people coming out of the woodwork who are under the misconceptions that "the constitution" prevents the government from requiring their citizens do anything, but I haven't heard any specific claims about violations, let alone a citation of relevant case law. Public health regulations, especially at the state level, are well within the powers legal under the constitution.

kolbe 6y ago
Trump’s executive order for the latest stimulus. The stimulus programs are clearly legislative, and as such are constitutionally the duty of congress. He even watched congress debate and negotiate a stimulus package, didn’t like their result, and with an unconstitutional EO, spent a trillion dollars. The choices to disallow religions institutions from congregating while allowing BLM protests seems like it’s a ploy to suppress religion and not an effort to protect people as well.
- dwater 6y ago
  The BLM protests are all outdoors and have not been shown to be superspreader events. Church services held indoors have been shown many times to be superspreader events. Your argument that any government anywhere in the US tried to use the pandemic to suppress religion is not supported by the evidence. https://www.click2houston.com/health/2020/05/29/what-are-covid-19-super-spreaders-and-why-are-church-choir-lofts-on-the-list/ https://www.click2houston.com/health/2020/05/29/what-are-cov... https://www.businessinsider.com/church-oregon-largest-coronavirus-outbreak-superspreading-2020-6?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/church-oregon-largest-corona... https://www.news4jax.com/i-team/2020/08/04/jacksonville-church-members-experienced-covid-19-symptoms-before-florida-reported-its-1st-cases/ https://www.news4jax.com/i-team/2020/08/04/jacksonville-chur... https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/05/health/ohio-church-coronavirus-spread/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/05/health/ohio-church-coronaviru...
  - kolbe 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

martinflack 6y ago

It's moreso that constitutional jurisprudence is more contextual to civic emergency than most people appreciate.

icedchai 6y ago

If that was true, we would've had a totalitarian-style lock down back in late Feb or early March. That didn't happen, obviously. Instead, the lack of a decisive, coordinated response, and "we'll leave it to the states...." is what caused all of this to get much, much worse.

mindslight 6y ago

Wickard vs Filburn did that long ago. My own judgement is that every single amendment in the Bill of Rights has been effectively nullified, justified by the courts. But still, I don't see how emergency public health orders go against the Constitution.