4 ms·

"nearly nine in 10 patients (87%) discharged from a Rome hospital after recovering from covid-19 were still experiencing at least one symptom 60 days after onse

by nico_h 6y ago

"nearly nine in 10 patients (87%) discharged from a Rome hospital after recovering from covid-19 were still experiencing at least one symptom 60 days after onset. " I don't understand how this illness is not taken more seriously in the west given how little we know about it and what little we know tell us it's not a recover / die kind of illness and more like a bell curve with recover / suffer forever / die and suffer forever seems to be the fat part of it.,

ketamine__ 6y ago
Wouldn't you expect long-term side effects from hospitalization that likely involved a ventilator and sedation? Not an expert here. Maybe someone else can chime in?
- rtlfe 6y ago
  IIRC ~20% of covid hospital patients were on ventilators at the beginning of the pandemic, and that has gone down as we've learned more about treatment. You can't assume that people were on ventilators just because they were hospitalized.
- jointpdf 6y ago
  This is presumably only one aspect of “long Covid”, but a study [0] that was making the rounds a couple weeks ago found this (quoted from the accompanying editorial)[1]: > ”In 100 recovering patients included in the study, 67% of whom recovered at home, evaluated a mean of 71 days after confirmed COVID-19 diagnosis, 78% had demonstrable cardiac involvement via cardiac magnetic resonance imaging, 76% had detectable high-sensitivity troponin, and 60% had evidence of active myocardial inflammation by abnormal native T1 and T2.” > ”...if this high rate of risk is confirmed, the pathologic basis for progressive left ventricular dysfunction is validated, and especially if longitudinal assessment reveals new-onset heart failure in the recovery phase of COVID-19, then the crisis of COVID-19 will not abate but will instead shift to a new de novo incidence of heart failure and other chronic cardiovascular complications.” In other words, even mild cases of Covid-19 are very frequently resulting in heart inflammation and other forms of cardiac injury. [0]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/... [1]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768915 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/... [2]: (another editorial, easier read) https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/27/covid19-concerns-about-lasting-heart-damage/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/27/covid19-concerns-about-l...
627467 6y ago
Where do you get the information that "suffer forever or die" is the fat part of it? In my anecdotal acquaintances none of the 5 cases I know of (2 with mild hospitalizations of just over a week) fall under that "fat" part of the curve
- rtlfe 6y ago
  > Where do you get the information that "suffer forever or die" is the fat part of it? Presumably they're referring to the 87% number that they quoted. But importantly that's 87% of hospitalized patients, and only a small minority of cases are hospitalized, so the number doesn't say much about the typical case.
  - nico_h 6y ago
    yeah, I might have misread that . There was the interview with Mr Topol in the Nautilus link earlier on here that mentioned 10% to 80% suffer from Long COVID, so I searched and found this article. However, there is anecdata that non-hospitalized patients also suffer from Long COVID as seen in this thread. I would be interested in more broad exploration of the real scale of this aspect of the illness.
throwaway122378 6y ago
87% of patients experienced at least ONE symptom TWO MONTHS after onset... COUGH... there’s one symptom
bllguo 6y ago
we have a general inability to deal with long-term, insidious effects of all kinds. This holds for covid, it holds for global warming, it holds for economics (see US shortsightedness w.r.t the semiconductor industry). It's baked into the political system and into our culture. People have far too simplistic a relationship with time.
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
  > People have far too simplistic a relationship with time This sounds like projection. I think humanity has a very complicated relationship with time and does handle long-term risk more than you're giving credit.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
Hospitalized pneumonia patients are generally told to expect 3-6 months for a full recovery. I don't mean to imply that's good, of course it's a terrible thing to experience, but it's just not surprising that people hospitalized for a serious infection would show persistent symptoms. What concerns doctors is persistent symptoms among patients that were never hospitalized and symptoms not typical of pneumonia.
djsumdog 6y ago
Because the vast majority of these patients were old, and the elderly often have lasting symptoms from any serious infection. Any viral infection can cause long term issues if you have a compromised immune system or are elderly. I've read the UK case study which had 60+ subjects and many of those under 60 were listed as "high risk" professions (they didn't list the professions due to privacy, but I'm guessing it's likely front like health care with high exposure amounts). The biggest source of transmission is still the home. You're around someone who is breathing out large viral load. This might be why we're seeing the huge uptakes in Texas, Florida and Southern California: people indoors all the time because air conditioning. There are other diseases with long term effects in only some people: Ticks and Limes disease is a good example. I think we might be seeing something similar to Limes here.

by nico_h 6y ago

ketamine__ 6y ago

Wouldn't you expect long-term side effects from hospitalization that likely involved a ventilator and sedation? Not an expert here. Maybe someone else can chime in?

rtlfe 6y ago
IIRC ~20% of covid hospital patients were on ventilators at the beginning of the pandemic, and that has gone down as we've learned more about treatment. You can't assume that people were on ventilators just because they were hospitalized.
jointpdf 6y ago
This is presumably only one aspect of “long Covid”, but a study [0] that was making the rounds a couple weeks ago found this (quoted from the accompanying editorial)[1]: > ”In 100 recovering patients included in the study, 67% of whom recovered at home, evaluated a mean of 71 days after confirmed COVID-19 diagnosis, 78% had demonstrable cardiac involvement via cardiac magnetic resonance imaging, 76% had detectable high-sensitivity troponin, and 60% had evidence of active myocardial inflammation by abnormal native T1 and T2.” > ”...if this high rate of risk is confirmed, the pathologic basis for progressive left ventricular dysfunction is validated, and especially if longitudinal assessment reveals new-onset heart failure in the recovery phase of COVID-19, then the crisis of COVID-19 will not abate but will instead shift to a new de novo incidence of heart failure and other chronic cardiovascular complications.” In other words, even mild cases of Covid-19 are very frequently resulting in heart inflammation and other forms of cardiac injury. [0]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/... [1]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768915 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/... [2]: (another editorial, easier read) https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/27/covid19-concerns-about-lasting-heart-damage/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/27/covid19-concerns-about-l...

627467 6y ago

Where do you get the information that "suffer forever or die" is the fat part of it? In my anecdotal acquaintances none of the 5 cases I know of (2 with mild hospitalizations of just over a week) fall under that "fat" part of the curve

rtlfe 6y ago
> Where do you get the information that "suffer forever or die" is the fat part of it? Presumably they're referring to the 87% number that they quoted. But importantly that's 87% of hospitalized patients, and only a small minority of cases are hospitalized, so the number doesn't say much about the typical case.
- nico_h 6y ago
  yeah, I might have misread that . There was the interview with Mr Topol in the Nautilus link earlier on here that mentioned 10% to 80% suffer from Long COVID, so I searched and found this article. However, there is anecdata that non-hospitalized patients also suffer from Long COVID as seen in this thread. I would be interested in more broad exploration of the real scale of this aspect of the illness.

throwaway122378 6y ago

87% of patients experienced at least ONE symptom TWO MONTHS after onset... COUGH... there’s one symptom

bllguo 6y ago

we have a general inability to deal with long-term, insidious effects of all kinds. This holds for covid, it holds for global warming, it holds for economics (see US shortsightedness w.r.t the semiconductor industry). It's baked into the political system and into our culture. People have far too simplistic a relationship with time.

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
> People have far too simplistic a relationship with time This sounds like projection. I think humanity has a very complicated relationship with time and does handle long-term risk more than you're giving credit.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

Hospitalized pneumonia patients are generally told to expect 3-6 months for a full recovery. I don't mean to imply that's good, of course it's a terrible thing to experience, but it's just not surprising that people hospitalized for a serious infection would show persistent symptoms. What concerns doctors is persistent symptoms among patients that were never hospitalized and symptoms not typical of pneumonia.

djsumdog 6y ago

Because the vast majority of these patients were old, and the elderly often have lasting symptoms from any serious infection. Any viral infection can cause long term issues if you have a compromised immune system or are elderly. I've read the UK case study which had 60+ subjects and many of those under 60 were listed as "high risk" professions (they didn't list the professions due to privacy, but I'm guessing it's likely front like health care with high exposure amounts). The biggest source of transmission is still the home. You're around someone who is breathing out large viral load. This might be why we're seeing the huge uptakes in Texas, Florida and Southern California: people indoors all the time because air conditioning. There are other diseases with long term effects in only some people: Ticks and Limes disease is a good example. I think we might be seeing something similar to Limes here.