10 ms·

The real reason Epic Games did this... Money - they were forced to hand over more than $500 Million dollars to Apple and Google in the past 12 months alone. Tha

• DivisionSol 6y ago
  But did have everything to do with developing the hardware capable of running the game on a handheld device?
  • eganist 6y ago
    You say this as if the devices don't have profit margins and the companies aren't constantly adding to their cashpiles.
    • DivisionSol 6y ago
      They're tacking on a recurring revenue stream (App Store) onto their one-time sale (iPhone). Margins on both fund the innovation machine. Also, with the outrage over companies needing to layoff/cut hours during(now) Covid-19 because they didn't have a warchest saved up... Having a cashpile seems like a fiscally responsible thing to do for a company.
      • eganist 6y ago
        > They're tacking on a recurring revenue stream (App Store) onto their one-time sale (iPhone). Margins on both fund the innovation machine. How does Samsung's devices division manage it?
        • user5994461 6y ago
          Samsung put together hardware to make a phone. They don't develop the software (OS, API, directX equivalent, iCloud/GoogleDrive, etc...). It's maybe one tenth of what Apple does all things considered. edit: Samsung does a bit of software, trying to push its own applications with subscriptions and bundling crapware pre installed with the phone.
          • eganist 6y ago
            > Samsung put together hardware to make a phone. They don't develop the software (OS, API, directX equivalent, iCloud/GoogleDrive, etc...). Precisely, and they also profit off the phone. And yet Apple double-profits off both the phone and the apps, and they shovel the cash away. The protest by these companies is entirely sound.
            • user5994461 6y ago
              Apple provides the entirety of the operating system, API, directX equivalent for games, complete set of development and debugging tools, authentication and much more. If Samsung were to make a whole development and gaming platform, they would charge developers on their platform too. and they'd really need the money because that's truly a ton of work. The protest is only about the service fee, 30% is too much.
          • m4rtink 6y ago
            IIRC Samsung is the author and main contributor to the F2FS filesystem used on many Android devices, so the do contribute, even to low level core functionality.
      • zepto 6y ago
        Not to mention that their cashpile is a hedge against very serious geopolitical risk, which Apple are taking making and distributing a device globally. Is Epic taking that risk, or doing any of that work to reach this vast market? No.
    • ashtonkem 6y ago
      There is no concept of a “fair” margin beyond which companies may not charge more.
  • sturgill 6y ago
    Which they then “sold” to an end user. (Scare quotes because my I don’t believe for a second my iPhone belongs to me; but Apple is kind enough to rent it to me...)
    • kohtatsu 6y ago
      That's a pretty cynical outlook imo, these aren't the new John Deere tractors. If/when my 11P EOL's half-way through the 20's I hope we'll have good enough homebrews to get Linux running like people do now on the 7.
      • ifmpx 6y ago
        I think it's a fair take given how locked down these devices are. Until I can install any software I want on my phone, it's not really my phone.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
• efficax 6y ago
  jesus christ they're clearing 1.25 billion+ a year on v-bucks????
• georgespencer 6y ago
  > By any measure, having to hand over half a billion dollars is just an insane cut of revenue to have to give two companies that had absolutely nothing to do with conceiving, designing or developing such a successful game. Uh, you know Epic makes a 12% cut of all games sold in their store, right?
  • cochne 6y ago
    I think the distinguishing factor here is you can distribute your game to any computer without the epic game store. Imagine if the epic game store was the only way to distribute it :)
    • georgespencer 6y ago
      Parent said that it was unfair for Apple to make money from a game that they had no hand in creating: > By any measure, having to hand over half a billion dollars is just an insane cut of revenue to have to give two companies that had absolutely nothing to do with conceiving, designing or developing such a successful game.
      • user5994461 6y ago
        Actually this makes me realize, I don't think that statement is true. Epic Games probably got help from Apple to port their game and their engine to iOS. I somehow doubt they did all the work with zero assistance from Apple, it's a whole game engine deeply tied and optimized to the system. They'd probably work with Apple just like they work with Sony/Microsoft on consoles.
    • DivisionSol 6y ago
      I think this argument is on shaky ground when Epic Game Store can only be installed on Windows. Rocket League lost MacOS/Linux support when absorbed into the Epic Game Store. Imagine if Windows was the only way to distribute games. Further, if you want to target mobile devices, you can distribute on Android.
• redm 6y ago
  They develop the platform, including the API's, the toolkits, X-Code, updates, and the stores themselves (bandwidth billing etc). I wouldn't say they do nothing. Putting a value on that is harder, but you at least have to look at what they provide holistically. Its not just the app store.
  • Panini_Jones 6y ago
    Quick question: Do console developers like XBox and the Switch take ~30% cuts of every game sold for their platform? Genuinely curious.
    • threeseed 6y ago
      Looks like Nintendo takes on average 40% https://gamasutra.com/view/news/367690/A_datadriven_primer_for_publishing_agreements.php https://gamasutra.com/view/news/367690/A_datadriven_primer_f...
      • Panini_Jones 6y ago
        That article mentions publishers but not Nintendo specifically at all AFAICT. Is Nintendo considered a publisher?
        • grogenaut 6y ago
          Nintendo is a publisher. Also publishers FUND your game as well which is why they take a larger cut, like how a vc would.
    • vitaflo 6y ago
      Yes, the norm everywhere is 30%. It's 30% on Steam, PlayStation, Xbox, Nintendo eShop, etc. Only Epic's store is less (12%). https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report-steams-30-cut-is-actually-the-industry-standard https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report-steams-30-cut...
• hn_check 6y ago
  "Epic gave Apple over $360 Million dollars in the last twelve months just to list the game in it's app store" The stat you cited was for two years, not one. Further, they paid $99 for a developer account "just to list the game" (and any other games they want to list). The fees you are mentioning are only for transactions that occurred on the Apple device. Their "v-bucks" can be bought on other platforms and are cross platform (for some platforms - Switch and PS4 do not allow cross-platform in-game currency). But strangely Fortnite gave no discount on their Windows app, for instance... (almost like they set up this whole ridiculous charade just to play the crowd). Now add that anyone assuming Apple is actually getting that full 30% is deluded. Apple sells iTunes cards at Costco often $100 for ~$80. They have lubricated the market to encourage grandparents, etc, to give their relatives gift cards, and created a system where people feel confident enough to buy. Those gift cards become vbux. Without Apple's and Google's system, they would never have made a fraction of what they've made. I hardly think Apple is innocent in this -- their position on cloud gaming is absolutely wrong -- but the horde that is suddenly falling in line behind Epic is uproarious. Sweeney is playing this crowd like a fiddle.
• Ductapemaster 6y ago
  "...absolutely nothing to do with conceiving, designing or developing such a successful game." But it has everything to do with distributing the game. Also it has a lot to do with outsourcing the maintenance of the mobile platforms — designing hardware, OS releases, etc. Epic did not design their own hardware, their own silicon, build entire global supply chains, design UX, etc. Apple and Google did. Do they not deserve a cut? I'm not here arguing the percentage of the revenue, just that that some percentage is clearly warranted here. Their relationship with Apple and Google is clearly a partnership, meaning it has to benefit both sides. Same way it works with consoles.
  • harry8 6y ago
    A unit fee for each distribuion of a couple of cents is warranted here and NO MORE than that. And it should be a flat fee for each unit be it 1 unit of a billion unit. Possibly with volume discounts if there were any variation in that pricing. Apple and Google are claiming the right to tax the success of others as though they were nation states and had been granted that right by popular mandate. A percentage? Of revenue? From companies that refuse to pay a percentage of profit in acutal tax to governments who actually do have that mandate to impose the tax. Evil is what evil does. Call it out.
    • threeseed 6y ago
      This vitriol is pretty hilarious. Do you actually understand how business works ? If you sell a product through ANY distribution channel whether it be online, brick/mortar store, influencers etc you need to pay a fee. It's been this way for centuries.
      • dahfizz 6y ago
        > If you sell a product through ANY distribution channel ... you need to pay a fee. This is literally what OP is arguing for...
  • wvenable 6y ago
    > But it has everything to do with distributing the game. Because they're the only option. I mean there's no reason why Epic couldn't host the app on their server that people could download. It's not without precedent. But it's just not allowed for mobile. > designing hardware, OS releases, etc. Epic did not design their own hardware, their own silicon, build entire global supply chains, design UX, etc. Apple and Google did. Do they not deserve a cut? Seriously? You think Epic should have to pay for the hardware that we consumers buy for thousands of dollars? Apple has some of the highest hardware margins in the world. They don't need software developers to pay for the hardware that we've already paid too much for. These aren't consoles sold for a loss.
• handmodel 6y ago
  I've always wanted to see a breakdown of Apple's value just based on the apps. For instance, Apple gets 30% of all money Tinder brings in. Tinder has to spend a lot of money on engineers and hosting the app - but Apple has close to no cost for this. If MTCH is worth 30B dollars based on apps that will indefinitely pay Apple 30% - how much extra market cap can you assign to Apple based solely on this? It must be at least 10 billion. Same must go for Fornite and dozens of other apps that gross huge numbers. (I know Tinder is on other phones and the percentage could change - but you get the idea).
• ctdonath 6y ago
  And how hard is it for Epic to sell in-game v-bucks? And Epic is making how much ... off what, beyond the game itself?
• zepto 6y ago
  This isn’t an accurate representation. Epic gave nothing to Apple. Apple gave Epic $840 in proceeds from sales it couldn’t have made without Apple’s work. I think you know that the margins Apple charges for the apps they retail are not a listing fee, and pay for a significant collection of services. I’m not commenting on whether Apple’s margin is too high or not. Just that this comment is a misrepresentation.
• ecf 6y ago
  Epic Games has absolutely no moral authority here as long as they charge a royalty fee to games made with their Unreal Engine.