4 ms·

In terms of usability, yes, but the problem with Linux in recent years has rarely been usability, it's the lack of workstation-level applications that are readi

by kunai 6y ago

In terms of usability, yes, but the problem with Linux in recent years has rarely been usability, it's the lack of workstation-level applications that are readily available on Windows and MacOS. As long as Linux lacks native support for Autodesk, Adobe CC, Office 365, FL Studio, Pro Tools, etc. and dozens of other niche programs by ISVs it will never approach the mainstream with any sort of widespread appeal. Currently Linux on the desktop is suitable for people who are aware of these limitations and either circumvent (through technical means such as WINE, which are opaque to the typical end-user) or tolerate them, acknowledging the limitations and doing nothing to mitigate them while embracing Linux's strengths as a web and educational medium (think Chromebooks). I legitimately have tried going Linux-only several times in my life and I've just come back to Windows every time. I know it's not ideal from a security perspective, a privacy perspective, etc. but there is just zero competition with Windows in terms of a software support perspective. Windows' backwards compatibility and range of software support is a masterclass in how to enable productivity. Even MacOS doesn't come close, with how frequently Apple breaks stuff that's expected to be supported (32-bit app support, Rosetta, etc) and how frequently they change architectures (68k > PowerPC > Intel > RISC, vs Microsoft with 32-bit Intel > 64/32-bit Intel)

the_af 6y ago
That seems like a moving goalpost to me. First, it wasn't usable. Then, it didn't have drivers. Then, it crashed a lot. Now it doesn't have Autodesk stuff? For the record, my mom doesn't know what Autodesk is. A "desktop" for me is where you can play movies, edit documents, browse the net and check email.
- chillfox 6y ago
  Those are just the common stuff that everyone does with a computer, but I think most people ends up adding one special thing to that list. For some that is gaming, others it's doing tax, photo editing, programming, or some specialty software for a niche hobby that few people think about. Even my mum ended up using specialized software software for her knitting hobby.
  - the_af 6y ago
    I'd say you can do almost anything except the specialist software stuff. By specialist I mean "brand stuff"; for example, the problem with a photo editing course is that instead of teaching you the principles, they often teach you how to do stuff in (say) Lightroom, essentially compounding the problem. I understand why they do this -- it cuts corners and assumes a common ground; supporting a multitude of editing software the instructor might not be familiar with would be a nightmare -- but it doesn't help the situation. If they taught you the principles of editing photos, without using brand specific names, you could do this with GIMP or Krita. I do hobby stuff with my Linux laptop, by the way :)
    - chillfox 6y ago
      If they didn’t show how to do it in specific software then I don’t think the majority of people would get it.
      - the_af 6y ago
        Agreed. Though I think the main problem is that an instructor cannot be expected to provide guidance for a dozen different tools. I understand the problem, I just wish they could approach this from an angle of general principles instead of specific tools.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    This is something I don't think enough people consider. There's a very long tail of niche software for niche use cases, and even "casual" computer users are likely to end up needing something from that very large set.
- kunai 6y ago
  And Linux is fantastic for that, until you come across a use case that is outside those typical bounds. Say your mom decides she likes photography one day and decides to buy a camera and take some lessons. Say her teacher says "we use lightroom and photoshop so you'll need to have these because they're industry standard" and she has no idea what to do and why the Adobe CC launcher won't load on Linux. Then she'll call you up and ask why it won't work, you'll respond with "there's no photoshop, you can use GIMP though" and your mom being a regular computer user won't be familiar with the eccentricities of GIMP as editing software and will be lost and unable to follow through on her new hobby. This has literally happened to people in my life I've recommended Ubuntu to. Too many times to count.
  - the_af 6y ago
    That is a real problem, but in my opinion unrelated to whether an OS is "ready for the desktop". That's just a business problem, not a technical problem: Adobe cares about platforms where the money is. It's not a technical problem because people like my mom can learn to use GIMP (note: people who use photo editing software are "pros" of a kind, anyway; "regular" users don't know how to edit photos, either) or Krita or whatever. But even if you fix GIMP's UX issues, it's still not Photoshop or Lightroom, so the problem remains: there's no Adobe software for Linux. But that's not what being ready for the desktop is about. That's not what a desktop is for most people, either. All in my opinion, of course. PS: if Lightroom magically makes it to Linux (hypothetical thought experiment), but then it's Overwatch or some other high profile AAA game that doesn't run natively, is it still a problem of the Linux desktop?
    - julianlam 6y ago
      Valve has been making amazing in-roads into the Linux gaming sector with Proton.
      - imtringued 6y ago
        I'd say gaming is basically there now and it only gets better each year. I often buy games without checking if they are compatible and they run flawlessly.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >That seems like a moving goalpost to me. Reality is a moving goalpost itself. The desktops (Windows, macOS) aren't in some standstill waiting for Linux desktops to catch up. But what you described isn't a "moving goalposts" case anyway. It's problems that need to be solved one after another and which all were initially present as issues. Since at first, it wasn't usable, it wouldn't matter if it has Autodesk apps. Usability was more important. Once it got usable, it still didn't matter if it had Autodesk apps, when it didn't have drivers. Then, when it got the drivers, that only meant you could use your printer, wifi, bluetooth, etc. But the "crashing a lot" would be a problem greater still, greater than the lack of commercial apps. >A "desktop" for me is where you can play movies, edit documents, browse the net and check email. And for billions of people it's those things, plus work stuff they need to be able to run, multimedia creation they need once in a while, game stuff they like to play and so on... Now that it does have most things in order, the lack of commercial apps is another problem it should work on (when it comes to people's needs).
  - the_af 6y ago
    > the lack of commercial apps is another problem it should work on (when it comes to people's needs) I think that's a losing proposition. People like me who use Linux have mostly everything they need -- and there really is a lot for the Linux desktop these days. The people who need "commercial apps" are on Windows and MacOS already, and for them, the Linux experience will always be subpar (I'm assuming for them the vast quantities of FOSS are either not enough, or not easy to use). Moving to a "commercial desktop" like Canonical seems to be trying to do will result in a failure and alienate the current userbase who loves Linux for what it is. Attempts at gatekeeping, doubly so... just look at the reactions against every move Canonical does in this direction.
- NineStarPoint 6y ago
  The problem I see is increasingly that people who want to do the non-professional things lean towards tablets instead of desktops for them. Most people use their “desktops” for work and hobby things where what software can run on them is incredibly important.
  - the_af 6y ago
    Totally! I have to say in this regard, a Linux desktop is very satisfying. I game, watch movies, code, do videoconferencing, print stuff, edit photos, all without much tweaking -- if at all.
pmontra 6y ago
> Linux lacks native support for Autodesk, Adobe CC, Office 365, FL Studio, Pro Tools I understand your point but I've been using Ubuntu since 2009 and never needed any of those programs. I do another job (web development, mostly backend.) Actually I had to run the real Excel (not LibreOffice) for a project many years ago. I created a VM with VirtualBox, got a license for Excel from my customer and installed it there.
vladvasiliu 6y ago
> As long as Linux lacks native support for Autodesk, Adobe CC, Office 365, FL Studio, Pro Tools, etc. and dozens of other niche programs by ISVs it will never approach the mainstream with any sort of widespread appeal. Meh, I think it's not an all or nothing situation. My client uses exclusively Windows on the desktop but basically the most "advanced" applications they use are Excel and Outlook. Practically all their line of business software is web-based. Most run on Windows for some reason, but as far as the user is concerned, it's just a web app. I bet that the situation is similar for most companies, and the other tools you mentioned aren't all that widespread. Of course, for the companies that use them to make money they're important. But I would say that's "specialized use" territory. I bet most of the people working for my client (> 3000 employees) have no idea what Pro Tools are, and they are more or less in the media sector. I personally use the Adobe CC photography suite as a hobby. And although for the moment only lightroom is concerned, I get the feeling that adobe is looking to move the products to the cloud. Microsoft has already done this with Office 365. For my (admittedly limited) use case, installed Office is dead. It's a pain to install, takes forever to update, and most importantly, works way, way worse than the online version. Outlook online doesn't lag and the messages scroll while I move the slider instead of waiting for me to let it go. Just like it used to before they switch to the new interface around 2013 or 2016 with all the white space. The online version even works on Firefox on Linux. Teams works on Linux too. Remoting to windows servers is way more practical on Linux (Remmina) than windows. So I would say that for my client, the reason they still use windows is basically inertia. I'm using Linux full time and never had an issue interfacing with the other people working there.

by kunai 6y ago

the_af 6y ago

That seems like a moving goalpost to me. First, it wasn't usable. Then, it didn't have drivers. Then, it crashed a lot. Now it doesn't have Autodesk stuff? For the record, my mom doesn't know what Autodesk is. A "desktop" for me is where you can play movies, edit documents, browse the net and check email.

chillfox 6y ago
Those are just the common stuff that everyone does with a computer, but I think most people ends up adding one special thing to that list. For some that is gaming, others it's doing tax, photo editing, programming, or some specialty software for a niche hobby that few people think about. Even my mum ended up using specialized software software for her knitting hobby.
- the_af 6y ago
  I'd say you can do almost anything except the specialist software stuff. By specialist I mean "brand stuff"; for example, the problem with a photo editing course is that instead of teaching you the principles, they often teach you how to do stuff in (say) Lightroom, essentially compounding the problem. I understand why they do this -- it cuts corners and assumes a common ground; supporting a multitude of editing software the instructor might not be familiar with would be a nightmare -- but it doesn't help the situation. If they taught you the principles of editing photos, without using brand specific names, you could do this with GIMP or Krita. I do hobby stuff with my Linux laptop, by the way :)
  - chillfox 6y ago
    If they didn’t show how to do it in specific software then I don’t think the majority of people would get it.
    - the_af 6y ago
      Agreed. Though I think the main problem is that an instructor cannot be expected to provide guidance for a dozen different tools. I understand the problem, I just wish they could approach this from an angle of general principles instead of specific tools.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  This is something I don't think enough people consider. There's a very long tail of niche software for niche use cases, and even "casual" computer users are likely to end up needing something from that very large set.
kunai 6y ago
And Linux is fantastic for that, until you come across a use case that is outside those typical bounds. Say your mom decides she likes photography one day and decides to buy a camera and take some lessons. Say her teacher says "we use lightroom and photoshop so you'll need to have these because they're industry standard" and she has no idea what to do and why the Adobe CC launcher won't load on Linux. Then she'll call you up and ask why it won't work, you'll respond with "there's no photoshop, you can use GIMP though" and your mom being a regular computer user won't be familiar with the eccentricities of GIMP as editing software and will be lost and unable to follow through on her new hobby. This has literally happened to people in my life I've recommended Ubuntu to. Too many times to count.
- the_af 6y ago
  That is a real problem, but in my opinion unrelated to whether an OS is "ready for the desktop". That's just a business problem, not a technical problem: Adobe cares about platforms where the money is. It's not a technical problem because people like my mom can learn to use GIMP (note: people who use photo editing software are "pros" of a kind, anyway; "regular" users don't know how to edit photos, either) or Krita or whatever. But even if you fix GIMP's UX issues, it's still not Photoshop or Lightroom, so the problem remains: there's no Adobe software for Linux. But that's not what being ready for the desktop is about. That's not what a desktop is for most people, either. All in my opinion, of course. PS: if Lightroom magically makes it to Linux (hypothetical thought experiment), but then it's Overwatch or some other high profile AAA game that doesn't run natively, is it still a problem of the Linux desktop?
  - julianlam 6y ago
    Valve has been making amazing in-roads into the Linux gaming sector with Proton.
    - imtringued 6y ago
      I'd say gaming is basically there now and it only gets better each year. I often buy games without checking if they are compatible and they run flawlessly.
coldtea 6y ago
>That seems like a moving goalpost to me. Reality is a moving goalpost itself. The desktops (Windows, macOS) aren't in some standstill waiting for Linux desktops to catch up. But what you described isn't a "moving goalposts" case anyway. It's problems that need to be solved one after another and which all were initially present as issues. Since at first, it wasn't usable, it wouldn't matter if it has Autodesk apps. Usability was more important. Once it got usable, it still didn't matter if it had Autodesk apps, when it didn't have drivers. Then, when it got the drivers, that only meant you could use your printer, wifi, bluetooth, etc. But the "crashing a lot" would be a problem greater still, greater than the lack of commercial apps. >A "desktop" for me is where you can play movies, edit documents, browse the net and check email. And for billions of people it's those things, plus work stuff they need to be able to run, multimedia creation they need once in a while, game stuff they like to play and so on... Now that it does have most things in order, the lack of commercial apps is another problem it should work on (when it comes to people's needs).
- the_af 6y ago
  > the lack of commercial apps is another problem it should work on (when it comes to people's needs) I think that's a losing proposition. People like me who use Linux have mostly everything they need -- and there really is a lot for the Linux desktop these days. The people who need "commercial apps" are on Windows and MacOS already, and for them, the Linux experience will always be subpar (I'm assuming for them the vast quantities of FOSS are either not enough, or not easy to use). Moving to a "commercial desktop" like Canonical seems to be trying to do will result in a failure and alienate the current userbase who loves Linux for what it is. Attempts at gatekeeping, doubly so... just look at the reactions against every move Canonical does in this direction.
NineStarPoint 6y ago
The problem I see is increasingly that people who want to do the non-professional things lean towards tablets instead of desktops for them. Most people use their “desktops” for work and hobby things where what software can run on them is incredibly important.
- the_af 6y ago
  Totally! I have to say in this regard, a Linux desktop is very satisfying. I game, watch movies, code, do videoconferencing, print stuff, edit photos, all without much tweaking -- if at all.

pmontra 6y ago

> Linux lacks native support for Autodesk, Adobe CC, Office 365, FL Studio, Pro Tools I understand your point but I've been using Ubuntu since 2009 and never needed any of those programs. I do another job (web development, mostly backend.) Actually I had to run the real Excel (not LibreOffice) for a project many years ago. I created a VM with VirtualBox, got a license for Excel from my customer and installed it there.

vladvasiliu 6y ago

> As long as Linux lacks native support for Autodesk, Adobe CC, Office 365, FL Studio, Pro Tools, etc. and dozens of other niche programs by ISVs it will never approach the mainstream with any sort of widespread appeal. Meh, I think it's not an all or nothing situation. My client uses exclusively Windows on the desktop but basically the most "advanced" applications they use are Excel and Outlook. Practically all their line of business software is web-based. Most run on Windows for some reason, but as far as the user is concerned, it's just a web app. I bet that the situation is similar for most companies, and the other tools you mentioned aren't all that widespread. Of course, for the companies that use them to make money they're important. But I would say that's "specialized use" territory. I bet most of the people working for my client (> 3000 employees) have no idea what Pro Tools are, and they are more or less in the media sector. I personally use the Adobe CC photography suite as a hobby. And although for the moment only lightroom is concerned, I get the feeling that adobe is looking to move the products to the cloud. Microsoft has already done this with Office 365. For my (admittedly limited) use case, installed Office is dead. It's a pain to install, takes forever to update, and most importantly, works way, way worse than the online version. Outlook online doesn't lag and the messages scroll while I move the slider instead of waiting for me to let it go. Just like it used to before they switch to the new interface around 2013 or 2016 with all the white space. The online version even works on Firefox on Linux. Teams works on Linux too. Remoting to windows servers is way more practical on Linux (Remmina) than windows. So I would say that for my client, the reason they still use windows is basically inertia. I'm using Linux full time and never had an issue interfacing with the other people working there.