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An informative comment by a Dane in this thread suggests that the Danish immigration system tries to prevent immigrants using/exploiting its great social welfar

An informative comment by a Dane in this thread suggests that the Danish immigration system tries to prevent immigrants using/exploiting its great social welfare benefits while contributing little to the society or causing problems like forming ghettos. A straightforward way to address this issue is to deploy a point system currently used by several countries, including Canada and Singapore. I wonder why Denmark and the US, in particular, do not use this obvious sort of point-based system. There will likely be a massive 'brain draw' towards the US if this is implemented and specialized Startup Visa may not even be needed if the criteria/formulas are selected well. In the Danish system, it looks like the criteria are not optimized towards its real goals and use non-optimal proxy criteria like EU citizenship to make decision on immigration. This creates many weird cases like this (it is obvious from his resume that Gus will contribute as much or more to the Danish society than an average Danish citizen, yet he cannot stay there) and many we did not hear of. Note: It is true that the politicians needs to balance the issues of cultural assimilation with economic advantages gained from getting all these qualified immigrants (for example, the US might not want 2 million qualified Chinese and Indians coming in every year and form cliques within the country), but this requirement is easily satisfied by a good quota/bucket system.

psykotic 16y ago
The right-wing parties like Dansk Folkeparti have recently begun talking about a reform in which new immigrants wouldn't be eligible for social welfare for the first one or two years. I am strongly against such legislation because it makes potential high-caliber immigrants feel like milk cattle. When you're a newly arrived immigrant in the highest tax bracket, you deserve at least the same basic level of social welfare as everyone else in the country, from day one. From a marketing perspective, Denmark's social system is one of its greatest strengths. Were you to listen to Danish politicians, you'd think the country had a monopoly on creativity and innovation. The reality is that Denmark is solid in those areas but not enough of a stand-out to make it a unique selling point. If the country wants to draw more highly skilled immigrants, it needs to make them feel welcomed.
- pelle 16y ago
  No immigrant anywhere expects access to the social welfare system immediately. As an expat Dane I am not elligible to use the health system either for the first 6 months I'm in the country. I doubt very much if any of the must immigrant friendly countries like Canada and Australia would be pushing a bunch of social services on their immigrants and they are considerably more popular with highly qualified people than Denmark. When I went back to Denmark (I left again thank you very much) with my foreign wife, we had to go through the most ridiculous deceitful process of immigration I have ever seen. Then they wanted my wife to take that start hjælp money and press her into a cleaning job. I told them to stick their integration process and starthjælp up where it belongs and not bother us anymore as we were not there permanently and were specifically not interested in integrating in a bull shit society.
  - psykotic 16y ago
    Supposing I were a topskat-paying immigrant, newly arrived in Denmark, you better believe I'd expect the usual level of healthcare and childcare services. Unemployment benefits and the like are a different matter. The expectation is that you came to Denmark to work and you know what you're doing, so restrictions there make perfect sense. As for how it works in other countries, here's an example. When I worked in Korea, I paid the mandatory government healthcare tax (it was a few percent) and thereby received the same level of treatment as everyone else. It went into effect as soon as I arrived. That's all I'm talking about. Fair is fair. If you try to turn the system into a one-way street, even if only for the first year or two, you risk pushing away the most attractive would-be entrepreneurs and workers looking to immigrate to the country, exactly the kind of people who have no shortage of options elsewhere. I'm sorry you had to go through that shit. My fiancee and I visited my parents in Denmark for Christmas. The amount of paperwork to get her a simple two-week sponsored visitor's visa was staggering.
uvdiv 16y ago
A straightforward way to address this issue is to deploy a point system currently used by several countries, including Canada and Singapore. Plainly, to tolerate laws that explicitly discriminate against low-income and blue collar workers.
- nkassis 16y ago
  It's obvious that it's discriminatory but at the same time there is a limited number of immigrants that are allowed into the country every year. It's probably best to take those who can easily get integrated into society. For example in the province where I'm from (Quebec) immigrants from French speaking countries get more points. This is very discriminatory but at the same time, the society here is predominantly French and it's obvious that some one who can already speak French will have an easier time finding work.(Actually now days, if you aren't bilingual in english and french in Quebec finding work can be really hard.) There is much worse things in immigration policy here like the amount of money you need to bring with you to be allowed in. Were talking about 15k in cash to prove to the immigration officers that you have enough to survive without needing Government assistance in the first year. I believe this is per person.
- smikhanov 16y ago
  It's very easy to develop and introduce an immigration scheme that will produce an influx of low-income and blue-collar workers. Points-based systems are not a replacement for the traditional immigration schemes, instead they are complementary to them.
- goatforce5 16y ago
  The Canadian list of "skilled workers" is a list of job types where they are current shortages. Some IT jobs were recently taken off the list, and it contains plenty of blue-collar type jobs: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who-instructions.asp#list http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who-ins... You spent 1 year in the past 10 as a fry cook or installing flooring? Great! Canada needs your skills! The Australian list contains plenty of blue-collar jobs too: http://www.workingin-australia.com/visa/skill-shortages/skilled-occupations-list.aspx http://www.workingin-australia.com/visa/skill-shortages/skil...
smikhanov 16y ago
I think the reason for US not implementing any points-based system is that it's simply not that much needed there. US universities are constantly ranked as best in the world (6 of top 10 and 5 of top 5 technical universities are located there according to Times index), their (very skilled) foreign graduates constantly use K-* visas as a step towards a work permit of some sort and almost nobody of them leaves. Add relaxed immigration rules for Canadians and Australians, and last, but not least, the H-1B pool. Of course, folks from the Google's HR will tell you that there's a huge shortage of technical talent out there. Still, given the US education system's power, introducing points-based system might make more harm than good. Denmark, to the best of my knowledge, had points-based system around 3 years ago. I just checked nyidanmark.dk -- it's not there any more. Have no idea why.
pelle 16y ago
I think a point system is great for regular immigrants. But they have new rules about point system for bringing in a spouse. In that case they are just plain f-ing with our human rights as citizens, meaning that they are telling us that they can decide who we marry or not.
_delirium 16y ago
Denmark does have something vaguely like it, though perhaps not as extensive. I'm on a researcher visa in Denmark (American citizenship), and it went via a separate program that was essentially, "rubber-stamp visas for researchers". I got my work permit by mail, in about two weeks after applying (!). There are other Special Schemes for people who: have been offered high-paying jobs in Denmark (above ~$70k), who hold qualifications in professions deemed to be lacking available manpower, and a few other categories: https://www.workindenmark.dk/Find%20information/Til%20arbejdstagere/Regler%20for%20ophold%20og%20arbejde/Saerlige%20ordninger.aspx https://www.workindenmark.dk/Find%20information/Til%20arbejd...
anamax 16y ago
> I wonder why Denmark and the US, in particular, do not use this obvious sort of point-based system. They don't because the obvious supporters of such a system have joined forces with the open borders folk and/or the "let in low-income/skills" folk.

psykotic 16y ago

The right-wing parties like Dansk Folkeparti have recently begun talking about a reform in which new immigrants wouldn't be eligible for social welfare for the first one or two years. I am strongly against such legislation because it makes potential high-caliber immigrants feel like milk cattle. When you're a newly arrived immigrant in the highest tax bracket, you deserve at least the same basic level of social welfare as everyone else in the country, from day one. From a marketing perspective, Denmark's social system is one of its greatest strengths. Were you to listen to Danish politicians, you'd think the country had a monopoly on creativity and innovation. The reality is that Denmark is solid in those areas but not enough of a stand-out to make it a unique selling point. If the country wants to draw more highly skilled immigrants, it needs to make them feel welcomed.

pelle 16y ago
No immigrant anywhere expects access to the social welfare system immediately. As an expat Dane I am not elligible to use the health system either for the first 6 months I'm in the country. I doubt very much if any of the must immigrant friendly countries like Canada and Australia would be pushing a bunch of social services on their immigrants and they are considerably more popular with highly qualified people than Denmark. When I went back to Denmark (I left again thank you very much) with my foreign wife, we had to go through the most ridiculous deceitful process of immigration I have ever seen. Then they wanted my wife to take that start hjælp money and press her into a cleaning job. I told them to stick their integration process and starthjælp up where it belongs and not bother us anymore as we were not there permanently and were specifically not interested in integrating in a bull shit society.
- psykotic 16y ago
  Supposing I were a topskat-paying immigrant, newly arrived in Denmark, you better believe I'd expect the usual level of healthcare and childcare services. Unemployment benefits and the like are a different matter. The expectation is that you came to Denmark to work and you know what you're doing, so restrictions there make perfect sense. As for how it works in other countries, here's an example. When I worked in Korea, I paid the mandatory government healthcare tax (it was a few percent) and thereby received the same level of treatment as everyone else. It went into effect as soon as I arrived. That's all I'm talking about. Fair is fair. If you try to turn the system into a one-way street, even if only for the first year or two, you risk pushing away the most attractive would-be entrepreneurs and workers looking to immigrate to the country, exactly the kind of people who have no shortage of options elsewhere. I'm sorry you had to go through that shit. My fiancee and I visited my parents in Denmark for Christmas. The amount of paperwork to get her a simple two-week sponsored visitor's visa was staggering.

uvdiv 16y ago

A straightforward way to address this issue is to deploy a point system currently used by several countries, including Canada and Singapore. Plainly, to tolerate laws that explicitly discriminate against low-income and blue collar workers.

nkassis 16y ago
It's obvious that it's discriminatory but at the same time there is a limited number of immigrants that are allowed into the country every year. It's probably best to take those who can easily get integrated into society. For example in the province where I'm from (Quebec) immigrants from French speaking countries get more points. This is very discriminatory but at the same time, the society here is predominantly French and it's obvious that some one who can already speak French will have an easier time finding work.(Actually now days, if you aren't bilingual in english and french in Quebec finding work can be really hard.) There is much worse things in immigration policy here like the amount of money you need to bring with you to be allowed in. Were talking about 15k in cash to prove to the immigration officers that you have enough to survive without needing Government assistance in the first year. I believe this is per person.
smikhanov 16y ago
It's very easy to develop and introduce an immigration scheme that will produce an influx of low-income and blue-collar workers. Points-based systems are not a replacement for the traditional immigration schemes, instead they are complementary to them.
goatforce5 16y ago
The Canadian list of "skilled workers" is a list of job types where they are current shortages. Some IT jobs were recently taken off the list, and it contains plenty of blue-collar type jobs: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who-instructions.asp#list http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who-ins... You spent 1 year in the past 10 as a fry cook or installing flooring? Great! Canada needs your skills! The Australian list contains plenty of blue-collar jobs too: http://www.workingin-australia.com/visa/skill-shortages/skilled-occupations-list.aspx http://www.workingin-australia.com/visa/skill-shortages/skil...

smikhanov 16y ago

I think the reason for US not implementing any points-based system is that it's simply not that much needed there. US universities are constantly ranked as best in the world (6 of top 10 and 5 of top 5 technical universities are located there according to Times index), their (very skilled) foreign graduates constantly use K-* visas as a step towards a work permit of some sort and almost nobody of them leaves. Add relaxed immigration rules for Canadians and Australians, and last, but not least, the H-1B pool. Of course, folks from the Google's HR will tell you that there's a huge shortage of technical talent out there. Still, given the US education system's power, introducing points-based system might make more harm than good. Denmark, to the best of my knowledge, had points-based system around 3 years ago. I just checked nyidanmark.dk -- it's not there any more. Have no idea why.

pelle 16y ago

I think a point system is great for regular immigrants. But they have new rules about point system for bringing in a spouse. In that case they are just plain f-ing with our human rights as citizens, meaning that they are telling us that they can decide who we marry or not.

_delirium 16y ago

Denmark does have something vaguely like it, though perhaps not as extensive. I'm on a researcher visa in Denmark (American citizenship), and it went via a separate program that was essentially, "rubber-stamp visas for researchers". I got my work permit by mail, in about two weeks after applying (!). There are other Special Schemes for people who: have been offered high-paying jobs in Denmark (above ~$70k), who hold qualifications in professions deemed to be lacking available manpower, and a few other categories: https://www.workindenmark.dk/Find%20information/Til%20arbejdstagere/Regler%20for%20ophold%20og%20arbejde/Saerlige%20ordninger.aspx https://www.workindenmark.dk/Find%20information/Til%20arbejd...

anamax 16y ago

> I wonder why Denmark and the US, in particular, do not use this obvious sort of point-based system. They don't because the obvious supporters of such a system have joined forces with the open borders folk and/or the "let in low-income/skills" folk.