7 ms·

I've personally heard from several tens of parents that they are primarily worried about the economic and social affects of all these so-called safety measures

I've personally heard from several tens of parents that they are primarily worried about the economic and social affects of all these so-called safety measures governments and communities are taking. Just because it's easy to measure cases and deaths and hard to measure lost human connection, depression, children being left in environments of neglect, delayed/paused innovation and economic growth, etc. doesn't mean that those costs are less than the loss of life incurred from not being "safe". I would rather my children (and I have 5) grow up not being told they need to be afraid of everything. I would rather they grow up being able to learn with and interact with their peers face to face. And I am absolutely willing to sacrifice possibly a few years of extra time I could have my grandparents around for that. My grandparents are also happy to make that sacrifice so their grandchildren and great grandchildren can grow up in a better world. We all will die. Can't let a fear of dying prevent us from living.

gjs278 6y ago
I would have preferred we did nothing and let the old people die too. they suck up all the money and housing.
- rwcarlsen 6y ago
  You perhaps were being sarcastic, but there is truth in the statement. And while it is unpleasant, I think it is an aspect of this pandemic that is worth considering - not necessarily in an of itself, but perhaps as a way to begin discussing our culture's unhealthy view of prolonging life at all costs. I don't want to spend my last days/weeks/months slowly rotting in a hospital bed.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    If you're worried you're going to die from coronavirus given the current statistics you can self isolate. No need for the entire population to do the same. I started self isolating me and my family 4 weeks before my country imposed a lockdown, after seeing neighbouring countries being hit by the virus and not knowing what to expect. I stopped caring completely after seeing the hospitals were empty and after seeing a reported death rate of around 1% in my country. According to my mother, who is a doctor who fought covid on the first line (despite being at risk of death, given her age and statistics), the guidelines given by the government were nonsensical: ventilators probably did more harm than good in the majority of cases and there was a stance against steroidal treatment (which would have been the first choice she would have picked if it wasn't for the guidelines) which have been subsequently reevaluated. There was also a problem with dropping requirements for counting covid deaths which created a massive statistical problem. These factors make me think covid deaths are probably over-counted and it explains why this second peak of infections doesn't have a peak in deaths. Of course, the issue has been politicised and if you say something like the above you'll be socially ostracised - or just downvoted.
mola 6y ago
It's a sad affair. The measures wouldn't have to be so severe if there wasn't so much noise about it. A bit of cool headed thought, compliance, and leaders we could trust might have saved our grandparents while ensuring a pretty good upbringing for our children. Alas, that's not the world we live in. We don't trust anything, the media is busy being sensational, big money only cares about making more money in way possible, our leaders continuely lie to us and foster partisanship and miscommunication.
latchkey 6y ago
The fear is not death. How about the fact that long term effects are unknown. Or what sort of ongoing medical issues will people have for the rest of their lives? There is people who believe that once you're done with this virus, it is gone from your system and you're back to normal. Certainly that is the case for many, but there are still many more that will continue to suffer from what they are calling now 'long haulers'. Spend some time in a large (91k people and growing) Survivors group [0] to get a feeling of what people are facing. [0] https://www.facebook.com/groups/COVID19survivorcorps/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/COVID19survivorcorps/
- rwcarlsen 6y ago
  Sure - but the point/principle still applies. Every day we confront unknown risks that we don't fully understand. But we just keep on living. I think we have enough data for people to evaluate their own personal risk and generally take appropriate personal measures for safety. We can and should make efforts to accommodate those who assess their personal risk to be significant. But when you/others ask schools to close - are you really considering what the short-medium-long term costs of those choices really are? I have personally taken neighborhood kids to pick up free lunches offered by schools while they were shut down - because those kids' parents didn't care to take them and neither cared to help them feed themselves. I've seen working parents leave their young children at home because child care logistics and cost were not acceptable for their circumstances. I know kids down the street that are basically ignored by their parents that are not likely to have a healthy structured school environment they can count on. I believe these hard to measure costs are enormous but easy to ignore because the affected demographic can't fight for their rights/desires - they can't even vote. And privileged SV folks and internet yuppies are happy to drive this line forward. I have friends who have lost their jobs. I have a cousin who has lost their small business. Not because of COVID - but because of the "cure" for COVID.
  - thex10 6y ago
    Most of this just speaks to how problematic it is for a society to rely on (poorly-funded and unevenly-resourced) schools alone for universal childcare, alleviating child hunger, ensuring safety from awful households, and other concerns that could have been addressed elsewhere (this is all orthogonal to the effects of COVID).
kevin_b_er 6y ago
There's a lot of political talking points wrapped up in there.
x87678r 6y ago
Around my city I'm seeing a lot of kids lonely, anxious and unhappy where I've never seen before. My children were really looking forward to school and seeing friends, were crushed when told it wouldn't be happening.
- bcrosby95 6y ago
  Seeing their friends. In a mask. Without being allowed to talk or interact with them before, during, or after class. Sounds fun. The reality of what in-person school looks like isn't anywhere close to what your children are looking forward to. Our oldest is going into Kindergarten this year. We chose distance learning before that became the only option because we didn't want her first experience with "big girl school" to be something out of Handmaid's Tale.
- thex10 6y ago
  And a lot of adults were similarly disappointed. I mean, aside from the whole possible loss of livelihood and disruption to earning potential thing... I’ve seen adults who were really looking forward to these things that didn’t pan out as planned thanks to COVID: - professional conferences - sport games - concerts - school reunions - weddings - grieving death of elder together with family - baby showers - travel/vacations - birthday parties - having friends over for support while stuck at home with a newborn (editors note: it me) It’s been hard of everybody. Maybe this is my perspective from having grown up in poverty/underclass talking- but I don’t get this hand wringing over how hard this is for children in particular.
  - rwcarlsen 6y ago
    I agree. Perhaps it is because we are rapidly approaching the date when most schools around the U.S. begin opening back up (or not) after summer vacation. So this is on many people's minds and many decisions are being made about it at local and state levels currently. This is why it is on my mind particularly anyway. I think people are way underestimating the negative consequences economic, social, psychological, etc. of covid mitigations generally. I think we have long passed the point where benefits are worth the costs.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
thex10 6y ago
> And I am absolutely willing to sacrifice possibly a few years of extra time I could have my grandparents around for that. My grandparents are also happy to make that sacrifice so their grandchildren ... Sigh. I can’t believe this needs to be spelled out for you and your ilk. There are other people out there beyond your grandparents. Regardless of how you and they personally feel — I don’t want to die just because your personal definition of “living” (hello, a few months of lockdown or similar is still alive) facilitates disease spread. I AM NOT WILLING TO DIE PREMATURELY just so your kids can avoid going a few months without physically engaging peers, or just so you all can avoid having to take simple personal precautions when outside. Lest anyone accuses me of not understanding without raising children- I am literally holding my sleeping 5 month old as I type this. It’s not about being told to be afraid of everything (where does this idea come from? literally no one is advocating that). It’s about responding to existing, real dangers with appropriate measures.
- rwcarlsen 6y ago
  But how many people? Should 10,000 kids lose school and all the problems that can avalanche into for the future to save 1 year of 1 life of one person who already has degrading health?
  - heylook 6y ago
    I would happily trade away: - 1 whole semester of in-person instruction for all 56 million school-aged kids in the US In exchange for: - The cumulative remaining years of the 50k(?), 100k(?), possibly even more that will die directly from the virus in the US alone - Freedom from long-term health issues caused by the virus for another several hundred thousand at minimum who won't die but also won't get "the flu" Now your turn. What is your number?
    - rwcarlsen 6y ago
      I acknowledge that we are choosing between two bad alternatives here. I personally believe that we should trade all N hundred thousand lives for a normal school year for 56 million kids.
mnm1 6y ago
The rest of society is certainly not happy to make that sacrifice for your extreme selfishness and callousness and frankly, we shouldn't have to die because your kids might grow up fearful. What a selfish, disgusting attitude.
fiblye 6y ago
I think teaching kids to be afraid of disease is one of the few things separating humans from animals. It’s one thing that’s let us survive for so long and build societies.

gjs278 6y ago

I would have preferred we did nothing and let the old people die too. they suck up all the money and housing.

rwcarlsen 6y ago
You perhaps were being sarcastic, but there is truth in the statement. And while it is unpleasant, I think it is an aspect of this pandemic that is worth considering - not necessarily in an of itself, but perhaps as a way to begin discussing our culture's unhealthy view of prolonging life at all costs. I don't want to spend my last days/weeks/months slowly rotting in a hospital bed.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  If you're worried you're going to die from coronavirus given the current statistics you can self isolate. No need for the entire population to do the same. I started self isolating me and my family 4 weeks before my country imposed a lockdown, after seeing neighbouring countries being hit by the virus and not knowing what to expect. I stopped caring completely after seeing the hospitals were empty and after seeing a reported death rate of around 1% in my country. According to my mother, who is a doctor who fought covid on the first line (despite being at risk of death, given her age and statistics), the guidelines given by the government were nonsensical: ventilators probably did more harm than good in the majority of cases and there was a stance against steroidal treatment (which would have been the first choice she would have picked if it wasn't for the guidelines) which have been subsequently reevaluated. There was also a problem with dropping requirements for counting covid deaths which created a massive statistical problem. These factors make me think covid deaths are probably over-counted and it explains why this second peak of infections doesn't have a peak in deaths. Of course, the issue has been politicised and if you say something like the above you'll be socially ostracised - or just downvoted.

mola 6y ago

It's a sad affair. The measures wouldn't have to be so severe if there wasn't so much noise about it. A bit of cool headed thought, compliance, and leaders we could trust might have saved our grandparents while ensuring a pretty good upbringing for our children. Alas, that's not the world we live in. We don't trust anything, the media is busy being sensational, big money only cares about making more money in way possible, our leaders continuely lie to us and foster partisanship and miscommunication.

latchkey 6y ago

The fear is not death. How about the fact that long term effects are unknown. Or what sort of ongoing medical issues will people have for the rest of their lives? There is people who believe that once you're done with this virus, it is gone from your system and you're back to normal. Certainly that is the case for many, but there are still many more that will continue to suffer from what they are calling now 'long haulers'. Spend some time in a large (91k people and growing) Survivors group [0] to get a feeling of what people are facing. [0] https://www.facebook.com/groups/COVID19survivorcorps/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/COVID19survivorcorps/

rwcarlsen 6y ago
Sure - but the point/principle still applies. Every day we confront unknown risks that we don't fully understand. But we just keep on living. I think we have enough data for people to evaluate their own personal risk and generally take appropriate personal measures for safety. We can and should make efforts to accommodate those who assess their personal risk to be significant. But when you/others ask schools to close - are you really considering what the short-medium-long term costs of those choices really are? I have personally taken neighborhood kids to pick up free lunches offered by schools while they were shut down - because those kids' parents didn't care to take them and neither cared to help them feed themselves. I've seen working parents leave their young children at home because child care logistics and cost were not acceptable for their circumstances. I know kids down the street that are basically ignored by their parents that are not likely to have a healthy structured school environment they can count on. I believe these hard to measure costs are enormous but easy to ignore because the affected demographic can't fight for their rights/desires - they can't even vote. And privileged SV folks and internet yuppies are happy to drive this line forward. I have friends who have lost their jobs. I have a cousin who has lost their small business. Not because of COVID - but because of the "cure" for COVID.
- thex10 6y ago
  Most of this just speaks to how problematic it is for a society to rely on (poorly-funded and unevenly-resourced) schools alone for universal childcare, alleviating child hunger, ensuring safety from awful households, and other concerns that could have been addressed elsewhere (this is all orthogonal to the effects of COVID).

kevin_b_er 6y ago

There's a lot of political talking points wrapped up in there.

x87678r 6y ago

Around my city I'm seeing a lot of kids lonely, anxious and unhappy where I've never seen before. My children were really looking forward to school and seeing friends, were crushed when told it wouldn't be happening.

bcrosby95 6y ago
Seeing their friends. In a mask. Without being allowed to talk or interact with them before, during, or after class. Sounds fun. The reality of what in-person school looks like isn't anywhere close to what your children are looking forward to. Our oldest is going into Kindergarten this year. We chose distance learning before that became the only option because we didn't want her first experience with "big girl school" to be something out of Handmaid's Tale.
thex10 6y ago
And a lot of adults were similarly disappointed. I mean, aside from the whole possible loss of livelihood and disruption to earning potential thing... I’ve seen adults who were really looking forward to these things that didn’t pan out as planned thanks to COVID: - professional conferences - sport games - concerts - school reunions - weddings - grieving death of elder together with family - baby showers - travel/vacations - birthday parties - having friends over for support while stuck at home with a newborn (editors note: it me) It’s been hard of everybody. Maybe this is my perspective from having grown up in poverty/underclass talking- but I don’t get this hand wringing over how hard this is for children in particular.
- rwcarlsen 6y ago
  I agree. Perhaps it is because we are rapidly approaching the date when most schools around the U.S. begin opening back up (or not) after summer vacation. So this is on many people's minds and many decisions are being made about it at local and state levels currently. This is why it is on my mind particularly anyway. I think people are way underestimating the negative consequences economic, social, psychological, etc. of covid mitigations generally. I think we have long passed the point where benefits are worth the costs.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

thex10 6y ago

> And I am absolutely willing to sacrifice possibly a few years of extra time I could have my grandparents around for that. My grandparents are also happy to make that sacrifice so their grandchildren ... Sigh. I can’t believe this needs to be spelled out for you and your ilk. There are other people out there beyond your grandparents. Regardless of how you and they personally feel — I don’t want to die just because your personal definition of “living” (hello, a few months of lockdown or similar is still alive) facilitates disease spread. I AM NOT WILLING TO DIE PREMATURELY just so your kids can avoid going a few months without physically engaging peers, or just so you all can avoid having to take simple personal precautions when outside. Lest anyone accuses me of not understanding without raising children- I am literally holding my sleeping 5 month old as I type this. It’s not about being told to be afraid of everything (where does this idea come from? literally no one is advocating that). It’s about responding to existing, real dangers with appropriate measures.

rwcarlsen 6y ago
But how many people? Should 10,000 kids lose school and all the problems that can avalanche into for the future to save 1 year of 1 life of one person who already has degrading health?
- heylook 6y ago
  I would happily trade away: - 1 whole semester of in-person instruction for all 56 million school-aged kids in the US In exchange for: - The cumulative remaining years of the 50k(?), 100k(?), possibly even more that will die directly from the virus in the US alone - Freedom from long-term health issues caused by the virus for another several hundred thousand at minimum who won't die but also won't get "the flu" Now your turn. What is your number?
  - rwcarlsen 6y ago
    I acknowledge that we are choosing between two bad alternatives here. I personally believe that we should trade all N hundred thousand lives for a normal school year for 56 million kids.

mnm1 6y ago

The rest of society is certainly not happy to make that sacrifice for your extreme selfishness and callousness and frankly, we shouldn't have to die because your kids might grow up fearful. What a selfish, disgusting attitude.

fiblye 6y ago

I think teaching kids to be afraid of disease is one of the few things separating humans from animals. It’s one thing that’s let us survive for so long and build societies.